Best Piston Engined Fighter Ever

[Soren]

I thought of mentioning it Soren, but the Tank was a better performer than the Dora, so its kinda moot...

Well that is debatable, but I tend to agree

The D-12 would nonetheless prove a true menace at high alt, and low alt performance was still great with 607 km/h at SL and a soaring climb rate - would definitely outperform any P-51.

 

[GregP]

The F8F was not a "probable," it was and is the finest piston air-to-air fighter mount I can think of. It easily takes a P-51, even an H model, on maneuverability, agility, firepower, rate of climb, and rate of turn. The only place where the P-51H is better is top speed, and that erodes in any sort of a climb, which is right where the F8F would go.

The Ta-152H was a great high altitude fighter as ably stated above, but was not a low-to-medium altitude mount at all.

Just my opinion.

 

[Erich]

as I pointed out you will need to hear the stories of the Ta 152H pilots themselves.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

The letter was sent out today, we will see what Reschke has to say about the Ta-152.

 

[Civettone]

I'm with GregP on this one. Although I absolutely love the Ta 152H it cannot be cold the best because it was only the best at very high altitudes. Just compare it with the Ta 152C.
I don't care if it's the best at 12,000 m altitude. I'd rather have the best piston engined fighter at 1,200 m back in 1945. I know the Ta 152H could hold its own at low level - I remember reading the story of Reschke outmanoeuvring a Tempest at treetop level (in Manfred Griehl's Luftwaffe 1945 book), but it simply wasn't fast enough at low altitude. I also have doubts concerning its roll rate...

As to my personal opinion of the best piston engined fighter of WW2, it first of all depends on the meaning of 'best fighter'. I interpret it as a pure fighter so FB abilities don't matter. I also take into account the manhours to build it but also reliability, easy handling, carrier capable. Because it has to be the best of the whole of WW2 and fighters of 1945 are generally better than those of 1940, it has to be one that was already in service during the first part of the war. All this brings it down to just two aircraft, the Bf 109 and the Spitfire.
The latter was equal to the Bf 109E in 1940, slightly inferior to the Bf 109F-4 but in 1942 the Spitfire IX took a noselength. The Bf 109 hardly evolved from the F-4 of 1941 to the G-6 of 1944 when the AS and AM engines were installed. By that time the British had the far superior Spitfire XIV which could only be rivalled by the K-4 at the end of that year. But then the Spitfire F.21 was already in production.
P-51 would be a nice third...

Kris

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

The Spit and the Bf-109 in my opinion are the epitime of WW2 air combat. When I think of combat over Europe that is exactly what I think of. They were 2 great aircraft (not the overall best of the war, but damn good aircraft).

I think either aircraft had advantages and disadvantages over the other and were fairly well matched.

 

[Civettone]

Quite right!
What I especially like about them, is that they were easy-to-build fighters that stayed up-to-date till the very end. That only shows the brilliance of their design. Try doing that with a P-40.

I recall someone's signature... P-40, P-51 and Spit were the best three fighters of WW2. I can't recall who that was but I would love to hear his reasoning behind chosing the P-40. A good aircraft but ... the best??

Kris

 

[jpatrick62]

I'll have to go with several of the other posts in here making combat experience a key component of my choice. Many of the "stats" of the superprops were manufacturer's best conditions, and without firsthand combat evaluations, dubious at best. How would the Sea Fury hold up to damage? How would the Bearcat? We just don't know enough. That given:

1. F4U-4 Versitile, very fast, great climber, tough air cooled engine, good manuverability, great fighter bomber, and it can land on a carrier!

2. Spitfire Mk 21 - Outstanding climber, great manuverability, very fast.

3. ta-152 - Very fast, high altitude interceptor.

4. KI-84 - High speed, outstanding manuverability, great armament, good pilot protection.

 

[Soren]

The Ta-152H-1 will make mince meat out of each of the above if a turn-fight is ensued, the design ensuring minimal expendure of energy in turns - that is one of the reasons the Ta-152 is so deadly at high altitudes, the wings produce an enormous amount of lift for very little drag.

And about its low alt performance, well as Erich said, wait for the pilot accounts. Nonetheless 595 km/h is still a very respectable SL speed, and the +5,000 ft/min climb rate is alot more than most of the above.

 

[dreadnought]

I am surprised that no one has mentioned the D.H. Hornet/Sea Hornet, with very high speed, high firepower (4 20 mm cannon), incredible manuverability and could land on a carrier.

By the way, am i correct in believing that the Sea fury was the first piston engine aircraft to take down a mig-15?

 

[Rapecq]

Well, this is what Willi Reschke recalled about his fight against Tempest:

"The Tempest was know to be very fast fighter - the English used it for pursuits of V1s, wchich they succeded in shooting down. But in this fight, velocity was of less importance, agility was the most important close to the ground. Durig the final stage of flight it turned out that my enemy was pulling up after a low-leval attack and gaining height. I attacked him, making a left turn.

In the fierce circling combat at up to 50 m, I was continually closing on the Tempest, but for not one second did I feel that my aircraft war reaching its performance limits. To avoid the lethal bursts from my weapons, the Tempest pilot had to make ever tigher circles, but still, my Ta 152 was ever closer. I saw that the Tempest was beginning to bank, a sign that it was not capable of circling any tighter. The first burst of my weapons hit it on the rear fuselage and tail unit. The pilot propably reacted to this by entering his Tempest into a right turn, which was even better with me. The was no way out for the Tempest. I pressed my triggers again - however, my weapons remained siletn. Reloading gave no result - no a shot was fired.

Today I can't remember the sequence of most ugly curses that I used then. Fortunately, the pilot of the Tempest was not aware of my bad luck, as he had received the first share of lead. He was doing wild aerobatics, I trying to follow closely. At some point I noticed traces coming off his wing tips and, over the left wing, the Tempest fell into the forrest. This aerial combat could be called extraordinary because it was fought at no more than 10 m above tree tops and roofs. Throught the entine combat, the Ta 152 did not reach the peal of its performance even once, responding to every move of the control stick, even just above the ground."

So, as we see, not only speed is important.

Regards

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Very interesting. I really can not wait for his letter now!

 

[Soren]

The quote above was from "Wilde Sau" by Willi Rescke.

As for the Ta-152H's turn performance, pilots were adviced to always turnfight with enemy fighters as the Ta-152 was much superior to anything the Allies could throw at it in this scenario.

 

[davparlr]

Well, this is what Willi Reschke recalled about his fight against Tempest:

"The Tempest was know to be very fast fighter - the English used it for pursuits of V1s, wchich they succeded in shooting down. But in this fight, velocity was of less importance, agility was the most important close to the ground. Durig the final stage of flight it turned out that my enemy was pulling up after a low-leval attack and gaining height. I attacked him, making a left turn.

In the fierce circling combat at up to 50 m, I was continually closing on the Tempest, but for not one second did I feel that my aircraft war reaching its performance limits. To avoid the lethal bursts from my weapons, the Tempest pilot had to make ever tigher circles, but still, my Ta 152 was ever closer. I saw that the Tempest was beginning to bank, a sign that it was not capable of circling any tighter. The first burst of my weapons hit it on the rear fuselage and tail unit. The pilot propably reacted to this by entering his Tempest into a right turn, which was even better with me. The was no way out for the Tempest. I pressed my triggers again - however, my weapons remained siletn. Reloading gave no result - no a shot was fired.

Today I can't remember the sequence of most ugly curses that I used then. Fortunately, the pilot of the Tempest was not aware of my bad luck, as he had received the first share of lead. He was doing wild aerobatics, I trying to follow closely. At some point I noticed traces coming off his wing tips and, over the left wing, the Tempest fell into the forrest. This aerial combat could be called extraordinary because it was fought at no more than 10 m above tree tops and roofs. Throught the entine combat, the Ta 152 did not reach the peal of its performance even once, responding to every move of the control stick, even just above the ground."

So, as we see, not only speed is important.

Regards

Come on, you guys, this is like a frame of an F-22 flying across the gunsight of an F-18 and saying "see, the F-18 can outfight an F-22". I'll bet you can find a slew of Japanese pilots that could make the same quote as this German pilot about a Zero or Oscar fighting many better Allied aircraft early in the war. The Tempest pilot made the same mistake early allied pilots made against the Japanese aircraft, until they knew its performance limitations, of engaging in turning fight. The lesson was to use and keep your airspeed advantage to engage and disengage as necessary and sweep the Zeros from the skies. The Tempest V had a 26 mph SL top speed advantage to the Ta, and held an advantage to 20k ft. The Tempest II had a 48 mph advantage at SL and held an advantage to 25k ft. Also, what was the experience of the Tempest pilot, the German pilot? Had the Tempest pilot ever met a Ta in battle (not likely), had the German pilot met a Tempest in battle (certainly likely)? As you all know, experience is a major advantage. One engagement by one pilot does not an argument make.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I dont know if Willi Reschke said he could outturn a Tempest in a Ta, I am tempted to believe him.

 

[Rapecq]

Hi

The quote above was from "Wilde Sau" by Willi Rescke

I'm sorry for that I didn't give my source, but I wasn't sure. This quote (about Willi Reschke's fight) I found in JG 301 "Wilde Sau" [Kagero Publication]. This small book was based (among other things) on: Willi Reschke, Jagdgeschwader 301/302 "Wilde Sau". What is more interesting, I found similiar (however different a bit) description of this combat in: Osprey Aircraft of the Aces, Focke-Wulf Fw 190 Aces of the Western Front, so I decided not to give source.

One engagement by one pilot does not an argument make.

Maybe, but It show that Ta 152 H-1 (with good pilot) could be dangerous adversary at low attitude. And what is more important, Willi Reschke said that while he was making those tight turns, he didn't reach the peak of Ta 152 turning capabilities.

Regards,

 

[Raf ace]

I think ill go for F8F bearcat and sea fury

 

[Soren]

Davparlr,

The Tempest wasn't a good turn-fighter, both the Mustang and FW-190 turned tighter, and the Ta-152H turned alot tighter than any of those.

 

[davparlr]

Davparlr,

The Tempest wasn't a good turn-fighter, both the Mustang and FW-190 turned tighter, and the Ta-152H turned alot tighter than any of those.

With that wing, I assumed the Ta-152H could out turn and out climb all those planes, although I am not aware of what power is available to the Ta at that altitude. But, as we all know, the good pilot always uses his aircraft strength against the opponents weaknesses. This appears not the case with the Tempest pilot, who seemed to have gotten himself into a turning fight with the Ta. That was unwise just as the F6F pilot was told not to get into a turning fight with a Japanese fighter.

I don't know which Tempest model was fought. The Tempest V would have been at a disadvantage to the Ta, with a limited top speed advantage at SL. Similarly, the P-51D and F4U-1 would also be at a disadvantage. But these were older aircraft and not really in the Ta-152H's graduating class. However, the Tempest II, F4U-4, and P-51H would be far more formidable foes at these altitudes.

 

[dreadnought]

"Reaching Newchurch airfield at 480 mph I held "RB" down to 20 ft from the runway and then pulled her up to a 60 ° climb holding it as the speed dropped slowly off and the altimeter needle spun round the dial as if it were mad. At 7000 ft the speed was dropping below 180 mph and I rolled the Tempest lazily inverted, then allowed the nose to drop until the horizon, at first above my head, disappeared below (or rather above) the now inverted nose, the fields and woods steadied into the centre of the windscreen and then whirled around as I put the stick hard over and rolled around the vertical dive. Steadying again I pulled out over the tree tops at 500 mph, throttled back and pulled hard over towards the airfield in an over-the-vertical climbing turn, lowering the wheels and flaps in a roll as the speed dropped. What a magnificent aeroplane! They could have all their Spitfires and Mustangs!"
("My part of the sky", Roland Beamont)

"The Messerschmitt Me 262's most dangerous opponent was the British Hawker Tempest - extremely fast at low altitudes, highly-manoeuvrable and heavily-armed."
(Hubert Lange, Me262 pilot)


These quotes are from The Hawker Tempest Page