BEST "TRANSITIONAL" FIGHTER

[comiso90]

The year is 1935-sh. You have to purchase 200 fighters IMMEDIATELY. You can't wait for planes like the P-35 or the Brewster Buffalo.

Which do you buy?

The interlude transition fighters never get any respect… There isn't even a thread category for them The categories jump from WW1 to WW2!

I intentionally left off the Fiat CR.42 Falco and the Polikarpov I-153, They actually were introduced too late!

_____

The Mitsubishi A5M was the world's first monoplane shipboard fighter

The Arado Ar 68, It was among the first fighters produced when Germany abandoned the restrictions of the Treaty of Versailles and began rearming.

The Gloster Gladiator

The Polikarpov I-16 was the Soviet fighter aircraft of revolutionary design: it was the world's first all- metal cantilever-winged monoplane fighter with retractable landing gear.

The American Boeing P-26, nicknamed the "Peashooter", was the first all-metal production fighter aircraft and the first pursuit monoplane used by the United States Army Air Corps

The PZL P.24 was a Polish fighter aircraft, designed in mid-1930s in the PZL factory in Warsaw. It was exported to several countries, but not used in Poland.

The Fokker D.XXI fighter was designed in 1935 for use by the Royal Netherlands East Indies Army Air Force (ML-KNIL). As such, it was designed as a cheap and small, but rugged plane, which had respectable performance for its time. Entering service in the early years of World War II, it provided yeoman work for both the Luchtvaartafdeeling (Dutch Army Aviation Group) and the Finnish Air Force.

The Dewoitine D.500 was an all-metal, open cockpit, fixed-undercarriage monoplane fighter aircraft, used by the French Air Force in the 1930s. Introduced in 1936, the design was soon replaced by a new generation of fighter aircraft with enclosed cockpits and retractable undercarriage, including the 510's successor, the Dewoitine D.520.

All data is from wiki.... if you have a problem with the info.. sign on to Wikipedia and change it!



Mitsubishi A5M
Performance
• Maximum speed: 435 km/h (270 mph)
• Range: 1,200 km (746 mi)
• Service ceiling: 9,800 m (32,150 ft)
• Rate of climb: m/s (ft/min)
• Wing loading: 93.7 kg/m² (19.2 lb/ft²)
• Power/mass: 316 W/kg (0.192 hp/lb)
Armament
• Guns: 2x 7.7 mm (0.303 in) fuselage-mounted machine guns

Arado Ar 68
Performance
• Maximum speed: 335 km/h (215 mph)
• Range: 500 km (270 miles)
• Service ceiling: 12,800 m (41,995 ft)
Armament
• 2 x 7.9mm MG 17 machine guns

Gloster Gladiator
Performance
• Maximum speed: 257 mph (414 km/h) at 14,600 ft (4,500 m)
• Range: 444 mi (710 km)
• Service ceiling: 33,500 ft (10,200 m)
• Rate of climb: 2220 ft/min (11.2 m/s)
• Wing loading: lb/ft² (kg/m²)
• Power/mass: hp/lb (W/kg)
Armament
• Guns: Two Synchronised .303in. Browning machine-guns on sides of front fuselage, and one beneath each lower wing.

Polikarpov I-16
Performance
• Maximum speed: 460 km/h (290 mph)
• Range: 440 km (275 mi)
• Service ceiling: 9,700 m (31,800 ft)
• Rate of climb: 14.7 m/s (2,900 ft/min)
• Wing loading: 129 kg/m² (26 lb/ft²)
• Power/mass: 0.36 kW/kg (0.22 hp/lb)
Armament
• 4× fixed forward-firing 7.62 mm (.30 cal) ShKAS machine guns, a total of 3,100 rounds of ammunition.
• 6× RS-82 rockets or up to 100 kg (220 lb) of bombs

Boeing P-26
Performance
• Maximum speed: 234 mph (203 knots, 377 km/h) at 6,000 ft (1,800 m)
• Combat radius: 360 mi (310 nm, 580 km)
• Ferry range: 635 mi (550 nm, 1,020 km)
• Service ceiling: 27,400 (8,350 m)
Armament
• Guns: 2× .30 in (7.62 mm) M1919 Browning machine guns
• Bombs: 1× 200 lb (90 kg) bomb

Polish PZL 24
Performance
• Maximum speed: 430 km/h (270 mph)
• Range: 550 km (340 mi)
• Service ceiling: 10,500 m (34,449 ft)
• Rate of climb: 11.5 m/s (2,260 ft/min)
• Power/mass: 0.376 kW/kg (0.230 hp/lb)
Armament
• 2 Oerlikon FF cannons and 2 MG's (P.24A, P.24E and P.24F),
• 4 MGs (P.24B, P.24C and P.24G),
• 4 x 12.5 kg (4 x 28 lb) bombs (P.24A and B),
• 2 x 50 kg (2 x 110 lb) bombs (P.24C, F and G).

Dutch Fokker DXXXI
Performance
• Maximum speed: 418 km/h (260 mph)
• Range: 930 km (502 nm, 574 mi)
• Service ceiling: 9,350 m (30,675 ft)
• Rate of climb: 6,000 m in 7 min 30 sec (19,680 ft)
• Power/mass: 405 hp/t ()
Armament
• 4 × 7.92 mm FN Browning M36 machine guns

Dewoitine D.500
Performance
• Maximum speed: 402 km/h (217 knots, 250 mph) at 5000 m (16,405 ft)
• Range: 700 km (380 nm, 435 mi)
• Service ceiling: 11000 m (36,090 ft)
• Rate of climb: 14.85 m/s (9,600 ft/min)
• Wing loading: 117 kg/m² (23.9 lb/ft²)
• Power/mass: 330 W/kg (0.20 hp/lb)
• Time to altitude: 1.32 min to 1000 m (3,280 ft)
Armament
Guns:
• 1× 20 mm Hispano-Suiza HS9 cannon, 60 rounds
• 2× 7.5 mm MAC 1934 machine guns, 300 rounds each

 

[renrich]

I have to go with the I16 with much better performance that the rest.

 

[HoHun]

Hi Comiso,

Good poll! All too often the Bf 109/Spitfire generation monoplanes get all the attention ...

>Which do you buy?

Hard decision. I figure I'd want to have a look at the Polish PZL P.11/P.24, too - they were pretty competitive at the time and actually managed to get some export contracts in 1935, so historically someone must have asked the exact same question as you did

>The American Boeing P-26, nicknamed the "Peashooter", was the first all-metal production fighter aircraft and the first pursuit monoplane used by the United States Army Air Corps

Hm, do you mean it was the first all-metal production fighter aircraft of the USAAC? Junkers had already produced all-metal fighters in WW1, though admittedly only 41 were built before the armistice.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

 

[Glider]

Its between the A5M and the I16 and I went for the I16 mainly due to its speed and firepower.

 

[Gnomey]

I-16 for me as well. May of been hard to fly at times but it's armament and performance are the best - of the list only it and the Gladiator were in service still in WW2 and the I-16 did overall better than the Gladiator.

 

[comiso90]

I-16 for me as well. May of been hard to fly at times but it's armament and performance are the best - of the list only it and the Gladiator were in service still in WW2 and the I-16 did overall better than the Gladiator.

I suppose the I-16 was the best plane but I wouldn't have wanted to fly against the A5M...

Actually, the P-26 saw some action in the Phillipeans and the A5M saw limited action too

Before WW2 but an interesting P-26 story:

The Boeings were delivered to the 17th Squadron, commanded by Wong Pan-Yang, a Sino-American volunteer from Seattle, in time to be used against Japanese aircraft over Nanking in 1937. On August 15, eight of them attacked a flight of six Mitsubishi G3M bombers and shot down all six without loss.

During WW2:
Captain Jesus A. Villamor led the P-26As of the 6th Pursuit Squadron, the only ones of their type to see action in World War II, and they were flown with great courage by their Filipino pilots. On December 12, 1941, Villamor brought down a Mitsubishi G3M2 of the 1st Kokutai over Batangas. Lieutenant Jose Kare even managed to shoot down a Mitsubishi A6M2 Zero with his obsolete Boeing on December 23. Generally, however, pitted against overwhelming numbers of superior enemy aircraft, the Peashooters proved as ineffectual as their name implied. The last surviving Filipino P-26s were burned on Christmas Eve to prevent their falling into enemy hands.

TheHistoryNet | Aircraft | Boeing P-26 Peashooter

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Id probably go with the A5M or the I16.

I however will have to admit I dont know too much about these aircraft minus the I16 so I am looking foward to learning something here.

 

[Elvis]

Comiso,

First off, cudo's for showing an I-16 under service to the Finn's.
Very cool.
Of the planes you listed, I'd have to go with the I-16.
I understand it can actually turn with the Zero and by 1935, the airframe was finalized and I believe already sporting the more powerful 1000HP M-63 raidal engine.
However, since I'm American and I am the one doing the ordering, I would think I would use an American plane.
That only leaves the P-26. However, I'd only order it if it came with a few modifications, mandated by moi.
Go back to the original design, which called for a one-piece wing and retractable landing gear (actually submitted to the Army Air Corps, but "old thinking" reared its ugly head and the plane was eventually accepted with a two-piece braced wing and fixed landing gear because the other ideas were considered too radical. However, since I'm doing the ordering, I fired those clowns and mandated my own ideas).
Also, shorten the wings to an even 27' and incorporate larger control surfaces.
Finally, an improved powerplant - the P&W Double Wasp Jr..
The 14-cylinder version of the R-985 displaced 1535 cu.in and made 700HP at take-off (even at 20,000 ft. it made more power than the 9-cylinder Wasp made on take-off) and use the same prop, but a 3-bladed version to take better advantage of the added power.
...also, move the guns into the wings.

THAT'S the P-26 I'd buy.


Elvis

The year is 1935-sh. You have to purchase 200 fighters IMMEDIATELY. You can't wait for planes like the P-35 or the Brewster Buffalo.

Which do you buy?

The interlude transition fighters never get any respect… There isn't even a thread category for them The categories jump from WW1 to WW2!

I intentionally left off the Fiat CR.42 Falco and the Polikarpov I-153, They actually were introduced too late!

_____

The Mitsubishi A5M was the world's first monoplane shipboard fighter

The Arado Ar 68, It was among the first fighters produced when Germany abandoned the restrictions of the Treaty of Versailles and began rearming.

The Gloster Gladiator

The Polikarpov I-16 was the Soviet fighter aircraft of revolutionary design: it was the world's first all- metal cantilever-winged monoplane fighter with retractable landing gear.

The American Boeing P-26, nicknamed the "Peashooter", was the first all-metal production fighter aircraft and the first pursuit monoplane used by the United States Army Air Corps

 

[Hobilar]

The Hawker Fury was the RAF's first operational fighter aircraft to be able to exceed 200 mph (320 km/h) in level flight. It had highly sensitive controls which gave it superb aerobatic performance. It was designed partly for the fast interception of bombers and to that end it had a climb rate of almost 2400 feet per minute (730 m/min)

 

[Crumpp]

I-16 was the best plane but I wouldn't have wanted to fly against the A5M...

Didn't they clash in the Soviet Japanese border disputes in the late 1930's?

Combined Arms Research Library

IIRC the Japanese experience during these encounters contributed greatly to their design bureau's drawing the wrong conclusion about the nature of future airwar.

All the best,

Crumpp

 

[Arsenal VG-33]

If I have to stick with the list, I'd choose the Mitsubishi A5M simply because it is a shipboard fighter as I think this gives it an edge over the others, at least in versatility in take-offs/landing sites. The Boeing P-26 would be a very close second.

Off the list, I would choose the Dewoitine D.500-510 series for
1935.

 

[pbfoot]

I'd vote for the I16 as well but off the list might opt for the Polish PZL 24 or the Dutch Fokker D.XXXI

 

[comiso90]

Comiso,

That only leaves the P-26. However, I'd only order it if it came with a few modifications, mandated by moi.
Go back to the original design, which called for a one-piece wing and retractable landing gear (actually submitted to the Army Air Corps, but "old thinking" reared its ugly head and the plane was eventually accepted with a two-piece braced wing and fixed landing gear because the other ideas were considered too radical. However, since I'm doing the ordering, I fired those clowns and mandated my own ideas).
Also, shorten the wings to an even 27' and incorporate larger control surfaces.
Finally, an improved powerplant - the P&W Double Wasp Jr..
The 14-cylinder version of the R-985 displaced 1535 cu.in and made 700HP at take-off (even at 20,000 ft. it made more power than the 9-cylinder Wasp made on take-off) and use the same prop, but a 3-bladed version to take better advantage of the added power.
...also, move the guns into the wings.

THAT'S the P-26 I'd buy.
Elvis

If you're going to add all that, you may as well add more machine guns too... and a ramjet engine... and a cloaking device!...

Just kidding... but thats a long list of hypothetical modifications... It's not on the menu!

I didn't know they actually considered using retractable gear... good to know!

.

 

[comiso90]

.

 

[Civettone]

Wasn't the I-16 the first operational fighter with retractable landing gear?

Avia B.534 should be in the list. Fokker D-XXXI should be in D-XXI, I presume?

Kris

 

[fer-de-lance]

The Boeings were delivered to the 17th Squadron, commanded by Wong Pan-Yang, a Sino-American volunteer from Seattle, in time to be used against Japanese aircraft over Nanking in 1937. On August 15, eight of them attacked a flight of six Mitsubishi G3M bombers and shot down all six without loss.

Sorry guys, the very detailed records of the JNAF Kisarazu Kokutai records do not support this verison of events - 4 G3M went down and 6 were damaged. The Boeing 281's had their share (probably shared in 2 kills) but their armament of two rifle caliber machine guns was marginal against bomber targets. Many G3M, even with their unprotected fuel tanks, survived dozens of hits with 7.92mm rounds. The armament of one 50 cal plus one rifle caliber machineguns of the Hawk III's were much more effective ... which reminds me - what about the Curtiss HawK III?

BTW John Wong was in the air Aug. 15th but did not claim any kills. However, he was involved in both G3M kills (Nitta and Yamauchi) over Chuyung the following day - using just the two 7.9mm MG. The lead G3M of Lt Cdr Nitta went down in flames. (The gunnery training with the Luftwaffe at Lechfeld served John very well!)

The Dewoitine D.510 was a disappointment in action with the Chinese Air Force. The Hispano-Suiza HS404 cannon jammed whenever it was fired in a dive (the magazine spring had to be strengthened). It also did not do so well in mock dogfights against the I-15 and I-16. Actually, John Wong's old outfit, the 17th Sq, was re-equipped with the D.510 in 1939. The others were relegated to training.

My choice would be the I-16 - crudely built without the "bells and whistles" but the four fast firing ShKAS and the high speed gave it the edge against its contemporaries. Properly handled, it fared quite well against the A5M in China. Comparing the records from both sides, the I-16 came out about even with the A5M in air-to-air enagagements in 1937-38. Soviet doctrine at the time called for the more maneuvrable I-15bis to fight in the horizontal plane, tying down the enemy fighters while the I-16 fought in the vertical plane, making diving "hit-and-run" attacks (mainly against bombers). In practice, it didn't work out so neatly. In head-to-head dogfights, the A5M often dominated the I-15bis but found the fast I-16 much harder to shoot down.

Many of the victories against the A5M and the I-16 were scored in surprise attacks. The Soviet Volunteer I-16 regiment at Nanchang suffered losses when they were bounced by JNAF A5M of the 12th Ku on Jan. 7th and again on July 4th, 1938. JNAF A5M suffered losses when they were bounced, in turn, by I-16 over Hankow on Feb. 19th and May 30th. On Feb. 19th, A5M's of the 12th and 13th Ku were taking a heavy toll of Chinese I-15bis when I-16's from the Chinese 21st Pursuit Squadron turned the tables on them with a surprise attack from above and behind. Four A5M went down and one was badly damaged. The I-16's suffered no losses.

 

[Lucky13]

I have to go with the Polikarpov I-16....nice wee machine.

 

[Elvis]

If you're going to add all that, you may as well add more machine guns too... and a ramjet engine... and a cloaking device!...

Just kidding... but thats a long list of hypothetical modifications... It's not on the menu!

I didn't know they actually considered using retractable gear... good to know!

.

Well, its not like I've ever given this any thought or anything like that ( ).
Actually, not a big change at all, just a little trimming here and there.
Anyway, you said I AM DOING THE ORDERING.
So, if this is left to me, that's how I'm ordering it....list or no list.
Remember, I already fired those clowns who thought the 26 MUST have a two-piece wing and fixed landing gear.

...cloaking device. Great idea!






Elvis

 

[Parmigiano]

Polikarpov I-16 Rata for me in this pool.
Comiso, the 1935 Fiat CR32 should have been included: it did quite well against the I-16 in the spanish war (although I believe the Rata was better)

 

[comiso90]

Sorry guys, the very detailed records of the JNAF Kisarazu Kokutai records do not support this verison of events - 4 G3M went down and 6 were damaged. The Boeing 281's had their share (probably shared in 2 kills) but their armament of two rifle caliber machine guns was marginal against bomber targets. Many G3M, even with their unprotected fuel tanks, survived dozens of hits with 7.92mm rounds. The armament of one 50 cal plus one rifle caliber machineguns of the Hawk III's were much more effective ... which reminds me - what about the Curtiss HawK III?

BTW John Wong was in the air Aug. 15th but did not claim any kills. However, he was involved in both G3M kills (Nitta and Yamauchi) over Chuyung the following day - using just the two 7.9mm MG. The lead G3M of Lt Cdr Nitta went down in flames. (The gunnery training with the Luftwaffe at Lechfeld served John very well!)

The Dewoitine D.510 was a disappointment in action with the Chinese Air Force. The Hispano-Suiza HS404 cannon jammed whenever it was fired in a dive (the magazine spring had to be strengthened). It also did not do so well in mock dogfights against the I-15 and I-16. Actually, John Wong's old outfit, the 17th Sq, was re-equipped with the D.510 in 1939. The others were relegated to training.

.

The info I quoted was from here:

http://www.historynet.com/air_sea/aircraft/3030976.html?page=1&c=y

if they are blatantly wrong, perhaps they'd appreciate a e-mail form you. What was the first fighter to include a 20mm?

The Dewoitine D.510?