renrich
Chief Master Sergeant
He said the P38 had more kills than any other allied fighter in the Pacific which I believe is incorrect. I don't believe he said the P38 had more kills than any other twin engined Allied fighter in the Pacific.
Best Twin-engined fighter
- Thread starter Njaco
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kool kitty89
Senior Master Sergeant
I thought that the RAF only received a handful of Lightning I's and then the rest were redirected to the USAAF, mostly for training, being completed with counter-rotating props, but still no turbos.
What's the story on the Lightning Mk II then? And was there a prohibition on turbocharger export in the US durring WWII?
You're comment reminds me of how the Republic lines were kept open producing the rather poor P-43 Lancer to facilitate production of the P-47 when it was ready.
R Leonard
Staff Sergeant
There are, apparently, many who believe that . . . and not a few who do not.
Nope, not even close.
Air to air credits, US piloted fighters, in the Pacific Theater (includes Aleutians, Central Pacific, South Pacific and Southwest Pacific operating areas), 7 December 1941 to 15 August 1945:
F6F = 5,257
F4U/FG = 2,155
P-38 = 1,700 – Third Place
F4F/FM-1/FM-2 = 1,408
P-47 = 697
P-40 = 661
P-51/A-36/F-6 = 297
P-39/P-400 = 288
P-61 = 64
F2A = 10
P-36 = 3
P-70 = 2
P-26 = 2
P-35 = 1
How about European Theater? Okay, same deal, only through VE day.
P-51/A-36/F-6 = 4239
P-47 = 2686
P-38 = 497 – Third Place
P-61 = 59
Spitfire = 15
F6F = 8
Beaufighter = 6
P-39/P-400 = 3
F4F = 2
Mediterranean Theater?
P-38 = 1,431 – First Place
P-51/A-36/F-6 = 1,063
P-40 = 592
Spitfire = 364
P-47 = 263
F4F = 26
Beaufighter = 25
P-39/P-400 = 25
Mosquito = 1
How about the China-Burma-India Theater? okay, start to finish, including the AVG:
P-40 = 741
P-51/A-36/F-6 = 345
P-38 = 157 – Third Place
P-47 = 16
P-39/P-400 = 5
P-61 = 5
P-43 = 3
So, what about just against the European opponents?
P-51/A-36/F-6 = 5,302
P-47 = 2,949
P-38 = 1,928 – Third Place
P-40 = 592
Spitfire = 379
P-61 = 59
Beaufighter = 31
P-39/P-400 = 28
F4F/FM-2 = 28
F6F = 8
Mosquito = 1
Or, just against the Japanese?
F6F = 5,257
F4U = 2,155
P-38 = 1,857 – Third Place
F4F/FM-2 = 1,408
P-40 = 1,402
P-47 = 713
P-51/A-36/F-6 = 642
P-39/P-400 = 293
P-61 = 69
F2A = 10
P-43 = 6
P-36 = 3
P-26 = 2
P-70 = 2
P-35 = 1
I know, let's add them all together!!
P-51/A-36/F-6 = 5,944 = 1st Place
F6F = 5,265 = 2nd Place
P-38 = 3,785 = 3rd Place
P-47 = 3,662 = 4th Place
F4U = 2,155 = 5th Place
P-40 = 1,994 = 6th Place
F4F/FM-2 = 1,436 = 7th Place
Spitfire = 379 = 8th Place
P-39/P-400 = 321 = 9th Place
P-61 = 128 = 10th Place
Beaufighter = 31 = 11th Place
F2A = 10 = 12th Place
P-43 = 6 = 13th Place
P-36 = 3 = 14th Place
P-26 = 2 = 15th Place tied
P-70 = 2 = 15th Place tied
P-35 = 1 = 16th Place tied
Mosquito = 1 = 16th Place tied
Only place the P-38 comes out on the top of a theater list is for the MTO. In any other theater never better then third, including solely against European opponents and solely against Japanese opponents, and overall for all theaters combined, a definite, solid, third place.
And from whence come the numbers? Official USN and USAAF statistics and various well known compilations such as the works of Frank Olynyk or Ray Wagner.
Can we put the "pilots flying P-38s shot down more Japanese planes than any other Allied type" myth to bed once and for all?
Regards
Rich
evangilder
"Shooter"
Rich, your convincing arguments never cease to amaze me.
evangilder
"Shooter"
Does anyone have the number of kills scored by Mosquitos? I would think with the night-fighter variants in Europe and the other marks, it did a bang up job.
kool kitty89
Senior Master Sergeant
Would V-1 kills count?
And some of those kill scores are surprisingly low, the Spit only downed 15 a/c??? The Mossie only 1???
And only 3 kills by the P-400/39 in the ETO, or is this not including the Eastern front?
But the P-38 was certainly the highest scoring USAAF fighter, and the highest scoring non-USN fighter in the PTO.
And some of those kill scores are surprisingly low, the Spit only downed 15 a/c??? The Mossie only 1???
And only 3 kills by the P-400/39 in the ETO, or is this not including the Eastern front?
But the P-38 was certainly the highest scoring USAAF fighter, and the highest scoring non-USN fighter in the PTO.
R Leonard
Staff Sergeant
Plenty??
Numbers??
Numbers??
renrich
Chief Master Sergeant
Rich, as always, great posts. The P38, only slightly more successful than the lowly Wildcat. Hmmmmmmm.
R Leonard
Staff Sergeant
I wouldn't call the Wildcat "lowly". Of course, then again, I have some well known biases.
Regards
Rich
Regards
Rich
renrich
Chief Master Sergeant
I meant the Wildcat was not necessarily held in high regard. It more than held it's own in a lot of theatres but does not get the credit it deserves in the uninformed popular media. Believe me, I appreciate it. In fact I have often postulated that the F4F3 or Martlet would have been a formidable fighter in the BOB. My reference shows the P38 with 129,849 sorties in Europe with 1758 losses. I wonder if the number of sorties and losses includes those in the Med?
Well, off the top of me head there were people like Lou Luma on 418, Archie Harington on 406, both of whom were USAAF pilots "on loan". Then there were folks like Clarence Jasper, an American on 418 in RAF service.
I only quote those fellows as I'm somewhat familiar with the (nominally) Canadian squadrons. To get exact numbers, one would need "hometowns" for all of the RAF Mossie pilots, pull out the Americans, etc. There is a fellow somewhere who's compiling a list of US servicemen in the RAF, but I've no access to his results.
Point is, American pilots achieved more than one kill on the Mossie in total, but only one of those kills was in a Mossie in USAAF service.
I only quote those fellows as I'm somewhat familiar with the (nominally) Canadian squadrons. To get exact numbers, one would need "hometowns" for all of the RAF Mossie pilots, pull out the Americans, etc. There is a fellow somewhere who's compiling a list of US servicemen in the RAF, but I've no access to his results.
Point is, American pilots achieved more than one kill on the Mossie in total, but only one of those kills was in a Mossie in USAAF service.
R Leonard
Staff Sergeant
I guess that is something of the point. In which service did they serve? What uniform were they wearing? I could cite Leslie Knox, VF-42 fighter pilot off Yorktown, killed at Coral Sea, Ensign USNR, and an Australian . . . doesn't mean we chalk his loss up against the Australians, no, he was a US pilot, in a US uniform, in a US plane. Or how about Hollis Hills? US citizen serving in 414 Squadron RCAF; scored the first credit in a Mustang. Later scored 4 A6Ms flying in VF-32 in F6Fs. His four A6Ms are in the F6F count. His FW 190 credit with 414 is NOT in the P-51 count; the Canadians get that one . . . Canadian uniform, Canadian Squadron, Canadian service. Hills transferred to the USN rather than the USAAF because he did not want his proposed assignment to P-38s.
Citizenship of record is not the issue.
Citizenship of record is not the issue.
kool kitty89
Senior Master Sergeant
The F4F4 was a dog, the extra 2 guns (with the same total ammo) were not worth the loss of performance (which was already marginal) the F4F-3 was decent, the FM-1 was better, the FM-2 was a good fighter.
Plus there were probably alot more Wildcats involved with those kills (and more lost) than with the P-38s.
I'm surprised the US F2A's scored 10 kills, where else did they serve other than Midway?
Plus there were probably alot more Wildcats involved with those kills (and more lost) than with the P-38s.
I'm surprised the US F2A's scored 10 kills, where else did they serve other than Midway?
R Leonard
Staff Sergeant
Well, now you know why I am always very careful to use the words "claims" and "credits". Only very, very, rarely will I stick my neck out with a confirmation. Once the dust settled at Midway, cooler heads looked at the VMF-221 report with its "calculated" scores for lost pilots based on claims of survivors and said, essentially, "give me a break", the settled upon official number of claims credited was 10. Probably less in reality, but I'm not in the business of sorting that out. Personally I've always thought some, though not all, of 221's F4F claims were rolled up in their somewhere. One of the things I remember Marion Carl saying was that things were a real mess there after the battle.
Where else did F2As serve? Oh, a few places at various times, but not in combat. VMF-211 at Palmyra was equipped with F2As; as was VMF-112 at Camp Kearney; VMFs 222, 223, and 224 at Ewa; and even VMD-2 had a couple at San Diego. Also, remember VF-2 started the war with F2As aboard Lexington and VF-3 had it's share, too, though as I recall they may have gotten rid of them by 7 December.
I'm, personally, perfectly statified with the F4F. Got my father through Lae-Salamaua; Coral Sea; Midway; and the Solomons . . . otherwise I probably wouldn't be here.
Rich
Where else did F2As serve? Oh, a few places at various times, but not in combat. VMF-211 at Palmyra was equipped with F2As; as was VMF-112 at Camp Kearney; VMFs 222, 223, and 224 at Ewa; and even VMD-2 had a couple at San Diego. Also, remember VF-2 started the war with F2As aboard Lexington and VF-3 had it's share, too, though as I recall they may have gotten rid of them by 7 December.
I'm, personally, perfectly statified with the F4F. Got my father through Lae-Salamaua; Coral Sea; Midway; and the Solomons . . . otherwise I probably wouldn't be here.
Rich
R Leonard
Staff Sergeant
418, that's a Canadian Squadron is it not? Shoot down a plane in a Canadian squadron and that's a Canadian credit. You seem to want to have your own rules for counting that fly in the face of the generally accepted. I guess you're just smarter than I.
If you want to twiddle away on this knock yourself out, but you're going to be the only one playing as everyone else seems to get the point.
If you want to twiddle away on this knock yourself out, but you're going to be the only one playing as everyone else seems to get the point.
I don't want my own rules for anything, I'm actually agreeing with you.
"Only one Mossie claim? Surely not!"
"US-piloted Mossies, clear?"
"No, Mossies in US Service."
Your number of 1 on your list is correct.
FWIW: MM746, an NF.30 of the 416th NFS, Capt. Lawrence E. Englert 2nd Lt. Earl R. Dickey. "Every night at around nine o'clock for several weeks during the winter 1945, a German Ju-188 reconnaissance aircraft would fly over the American air base of Pontedera, Italy. Because of the regularity of these overflights, the intruder was nicknamed "Recon Charley". On the night of the February 28, however, a de Havilland Mosquito was readied with USAAF Capt. Larry Englert al the controls and Lt. Earl Dichney working the radar. When the Ju-188 reappeared on the scene like a clockwork, the Mosquito took off in pursuit. The night fighter located Recon Charley but because of the Mosquito's rapid closure rate it was in dangerous proximity to the target at the time the pilot opened the fire. The Ju-188, caught unaware of the Mosquito's presence, began to disintegrate. Some of the debris struck the Mosquito, harming the engines and causing hydraulic damage. Upon return to Pontedera, the limping aircraft was greetedby a fog blanketing the base. Able to spot the glow of the runway lights, Captain Englert manoeuvred the Mosquito over the faint landmarks, and than, with Lieutenant Dickey bailed out. These two members of the 416th Night Fighter Squadron not only survived, but became the only Americans to achieve a confirmed victory flying a British built Mosquito during World War II.
E/A Ju 188D-2 of 4(F)./122,Shot down NW of Cremona at about 2300 hour by a Mosquito night fighter while returning from a night photo recce over Naples, 100%, 4 KIA (including pilot Ltn. Fritz Wollert) and 1 WIA."
"Only one Mossie claim? Surely not!"
"US-piloted Mossies, clear?"
"No, Mossies in US Service."
Your number of 1 on your list is correct.
FWIW: MM746, an NF.30 of the 416th NFS, Capt. Lawrence E. Englert 2nd Lt. Earl R. Dickey. "Every night at around nine o'clock for several weeks during the winter 1945, a German Ju-188 reconnaissance aircraft would fly over the American air base of Pontedera, Italy. Because of the regularity of these overflights, the intruder was nicknamed "Recon Charley". On the night of the February 28, however, a de Havilland Mosquito was readied with USAAF Capt. Larry Englert al the controls and Lt. Earl Dichney working the radar. When the Ju-188 reappeared on the scene like a clockwork, the Mosquito took off in pursuit. The night fighter located Recon Charley but because of the Mosquito's rapid closure rate it was in dangerous proximity to the target at the time the pilot opened the fire. The Ju-188, caught unaware of the Mosquito's presence, began to disintegrate. Some of the debris struck the Mosquito, harming the engines and causing hydraulic damage. Upon return to Pontedera, the limping aircraft was greetedby a fog blanketing the base. Able to spot the glow of the runway lights, Captain Englert manoeuvred the Mosquito over the faint landmarks, and than, with Lieutenant Dickey bailed out. These two members of the 416th Night Fighter Squadron not only survived, but became the only Americans to achieve a confirmed victory flying a British built Mosquito during World War II.
E/A Ju 188D-2 of 4(F)./122,Shot down NW of Cremona at about 2300 hour by a Mosquito night fighter while returning from a night photo recce over Naples, 100%, 4 KIA (including pilot Ltn. Fritz Wollert) and 1 WIA."
renrich
Chief Master Sergeant
That "dog" of an F4F4, flown by USN and US Marine pilots in the early part of the Pacific war when the the US seldom outnumbered it's enemy and there were lots of experienced and well trained Japanese pilots still flying flew 2628 sorties, lost 178 Wildcats to enemy AC and downed 905 Japanese AC. I doubt the P38 did any better during the same time frame. A quote from Jimmy Flatley about the F4F4: " Let us not condemn our equipment. It shoots the enemy down in flames and gets most of us back to our base."
