Best Twin-engined fighter

[SoD Stitch]

The original design looks nice though, maby of the callibur of the Hornet, only available before the war's end... Looks cool too! Would have been more use than the final version of the Welkin.

Looks more like the Gloster F.9/37 than the Whirlwind though.

The F-9/37 looks a lot like a Beaufighter, only with twin tails, complete with the Bristol Hercules sleeve-valve engines.

 

[kool kitty89]

A good example of what Flyboy(I think) was talking about when he said that putting a bigger engine in an AC not resulting in more performance was the F2G-1D. It had a R 4360-4 engine rated at 3000 hp for takeoff but had very little better performance than the F4U4 with the R 2800 and inferior performance compared to the F4U5 with the R 2800.

The F2G-1D had incredible climb though, and it also had more fundemental aerodynamic and control performance problems.

Look what the Wasp Major did for the XP-72 though. Also, the engine realy needed contra-rotating props for best performance on a single engined plane as the torque was a bit of a problem and a single prop would need to be verry large to take full advantage, but this created even more torque and required moe ground clearance. Such problems were much less on large multi-engined craft such as the Constitution, B-36 or other large craft, and the H-4 . Well, the H-4 had other problems...

If you notice though, the XP-72 didn't do too much better than the XP-47J which was powered with an uprated Double wasp, but that had a lightened airframe (compard to the P-47D) and a much lower climb rate than the P-72. Also this is without the P-72's contrarotating props...

 

[FLYBOYJ]

A good example of what Flyboy(I think) was talking about when he said that putting a bigger engine in an AC not resulting in more performance was the F2G-1D. It had a R 4360-4 engine rated at 3000 hp for takeoff but had very little better performance than the F4U4 with the R 2800 and inferior performance compared to the F4U5 with the R 2800.

BINGO!!!

 

[Graeme]

"Looks more like the Gloster F.9/37 than the Whirlwind though."

"The one below is the initial version of what became the Welkin, before it was redesigned for the altered specifications for high-altitude use".

"And Gramme, is there any more you know about the Westland F.4/40 design, proposed dementions maby? It looks like it would have been much better than the F.7/41 version turned out (Welkin)."

Kitty, some confusion has crept into the history of General Aircraft Ltd's GAL 46 project of 1938. It's not related in any way to Westland or Gloster products.

On 18 October 1939, they submitted the design to the Air Ministry "out of the blue" hoping to gain a contract or at least stimulate an interest in a Stratospheric fighter and General Purpose Aircraft. General Purpose because it was also designed to carry four 500 lb bombs in three bomb bays…



A pressure cabin, "Reversible cannons" and a tricycle undercarriage were all very novel for the time. They had experimented with a pressure cabin and tricycle undercarriage on one of their Monospar aircraft.



The Air Ministry were impressed. They had up to that time given little or no consideration to pressure cabins, let alone an interceptor with one. So they issued a specification, F.4/40, and invited firms to submit designs. Included were GAL, Fairey, Hawker, Vickers and Westland.
However, there was considerable disquiet about the abilities of GAL to produce such an advanced aircraft. Their pressurised Monospar, although the first pressurised British aircraft to fly, was described as "commendable but rather amateurish". RAE Farnborough was quoted as saying that they were "not very happy" with GAL's work so far.
GAL did submit an altered (deleted the bomb bay and increased the dimensions) GAL 46 design, but as you have probably guessed, failed to win the contract to build a prototype.

And then Westland and Vickers take over the story.

(As a postscript, GAL submitted an airliner with their pressure cabin design-but that's another story)

 

[renrich]

The F2G reportedly had a rate of climb of 4400 fpm versus the F4U5's 4230 fpm. The F4U5 was equal as far as sea level vmax but much superior at higher levels.

 

[kool kitty89]

Sorry I was thinking of the P-72's 5280ft/min (and projected 7000 ft/min and 550 mph top speed with contrarotating props)...

Gramme, sorry I misread your first post. Still that G.A.L.46 lok great, and sound like a Mossie by its "general purpose", but it predated the Mossie right? Even the revised version souns good, I wonder if GAL could have pulled it off if given the contract...

 

[Graeme]

The F-9/37 looks a lot like a Beaufighter, only with twin tails, complete with the Bristol Hercules sleeve-valve engines.

This is a Bristol Beaufighter Mk IF serial No. R2268, trialling a wide span tailplane with end plate fins in an attempt to cure some stability problems. At a later stage, a fuselage strake was added. In the end, a 12 degree dihedral tailplane was the answer to the problem.

 

[kool kitty89]

The F-9/37 looks a lot like a Beaufighter, only with twin tails, complete with the Bristol Hercules sleeve-valve engines.

Actualy the Gloster F.9/37 used 1060 hp (and later the performance degrading 900 hp) Taurus not Hercules engines. They tried Perigrines too, but with no performance increase. Gloster F.9/37 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Freebird]

P-38's record makes it unquestionably the best wartime twin. Clearly the most effective, all around twin engine fighter.

Second comes Mosquito. Used in plethora of figher roles: day and night fighter, long range escort and intrude.

Sentimental favourite is the Whirlwind. A nasty combination of too many foward looking ideas and a bad engine choice and poor fuel plumbing, barring it from long range missions, doomed it.

If they'd built the proposed Whirlwind Mk II, with the uprated Peregrines running on 100 octane, 40% more fuel, cross feed fuel system and larger Hamilton high activity props, it could of been escorting RAF bombers to Lower Saxony, the Rhine and other important production areas in Germany by the end of 1942.

Interesting idea about the Whirlwind, too bad there is not even one left today. Can I vote for the De Havilland Hornet?

 

[kool kitty89]

But the Hornet didn't enter service until well after the war ended.

 

[mkloby]

P-38...

But I would like too see a Whirlwind whith a pair of Merlins...

That would definitely be an interesting aircraft.

 

[kool kitty89]

It's the proposed Whirlwind Mk II...

 

[Glider]

But the Hornet didn't enter service until well after the war ended.

True, but at least it was in production during the war years. Quite a number of the aircraft on the pick list didn't make production, so there is no reason why it shouldn't qualify

 

[Pflueger]

Jumping on the P-38 bandwagon: going with P-38 since thread concerns best twin-engined "fighter." The Lightning was a major player in all theaters, may not have been quite as versatile an AC as Mossie/Ju-88, but in pure fighter role I don't see how anyone can seriously argue against the P-38.

That said, Whirlwind is also my sentimental favorite: its a crying shame that the Whirlwind MK II was not developed, think it would have been a beast.

 

[kool kitty89]

But the thing about the Hornet compared to the planes that didn't see full production (ie Fw 187) is that many of them COULD have seen production before even the Mossie was in production!

Case in point, the Fw 187, the only twin the LW in the same time-frame of development that could have rivaled the P-38 for sheer fighting ability and long-range capability and overall performance. (as it exceeded the original projections by far, ~400 mph with 1000 hp DB 600 engines!) And with these engines it had climb and dive rates superior to the Bf-109 too, and maneuverability only slightly less.

The Whirlwind Mk II would have been a similar case, available possibly before the BOB and much more quickly than the Mk I since there would be far less problems with engine availability. Plus it was to have significantly increased fuel capacity and plumbing for drop-tanks making it useful as an escort.(maybe the RAF daylight bombing would have been more successful) Plus it would have been much faster and with a higher climb rate (of which was already the best in the RAF in 1940) with 2x 1000+ hp Merlins than with the 885 hp Peregrines and with much better altitude performance. It would have been the best interceptor in thr RAF, and possibly the world, at the time with such performance and 4x 20mm nose mounted Hispano cannons!

Just imagine what a dogfight at the BOB would have been like between a Whirlwind Mk II and a Fw 187 with DB 600's! Which would have been a likely occurrence had they both been ordered for production, as the Whirlwind would be intercepting Bombers escorted by Fw 187s!

 

[Triple Ace]

People, I think I am familiar with the fact that the De Havilland Mosquito served as one of the Royal Air Force's greatest ground attack twin-engined fighter-bombers in the history of British aviation. Mind you, I am a Triple Ace.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I am a Triple Ace.

Triple ace of what?

 

[pbfoot]

Triple ace of what?

IQ

 

[kool kitty89]

IQ?

And I think he means "self proclaimed" tripple ace...

The Mossie was a good fighter-bomber (as was the P-47, though not a twin) and nightfighter. But not too good as a pure fighter, escort-fighter, or interceptor, though certainly better than the Bf 110. (though it was good for night interceptions and it shot down the second most V-1s)

As a pure fighter/ interceptor/escort-fighter, it would have to go to the P-38, though the Fw 187 and Whirlwinf Mk II would have been up there too, and should have if not for stupid political decisions IMHO. (and earlier than the P-38 too, especialy the 187) At least the 187 flew, and some (slower but still great) 2-seater Jumo 210 powered ones did see unofficial servive.

From: Focke-Wulf 187 archive file

Next, three Fw 187A-0 (based upon the third prototype) pre-serial planes were built and used since summer 1940 as a defense for the Focke-Wulf facilities at Bremen, later in the Winter inofficially at the 13. destroyer squadron in Norway. The pilots in Norway were enthusiastic about its potential and demanded quantity production, but instead they were ordered to give the planes back to Focke-Wulf because they were only in inofficial use. Some Fw187 were also used in the aerial shooting school in Vaerlose, Denmark.
In the facility defense role, they shot down several aircraft. One Fw187 ace was killed in his aircraft.
(Sorry, I´ve lost the details, at least six kills, I believe.)

 

[Elvis]

The best.........I may change my mind but right now I'll go with the P-38, but my favorite is the P-61 Black Widow.

You know, they used to call the P-61, "The Flying Coffin" for a reason.

I went with the P-38.
It had one thing over just about any other aircraft during the war, counter-rotating propellers.
What that does is enable the plane to turn just as quickly in either direction.
With most planes, you'll turn one way a lot easier than the other, due to the effect of the spinning prop.

...that and 4-50's + 1-20 makes for a pretty good argument, for.

(yep, Lego's! )




Elvis