Best World War II Aircraft?

[renrich]

If one wants to use air race results as criteria in judging performance of war birds, one is on shaky ground with the P47. There were P47s in early air races but it could not compete with the Mustang at low altitudes. It's high performance was due to it's turbo charged engine and it had to get above 25000 feet to start gaining on the Mustang. Taking all in consideration the P47 as far as being an air to air aircraft was pretty much a dog compared to the P51 B,C,or D.

 

[Astaldo711]

There's so many factors in determining an answer for that. You can compare straight numbers, like top speed, power to weight ratio, range, ceiling, firepower. You can compare aesthetics, air to air kills, air to ground kills, etc. Once factor that can't be over stressed is the pilot. The P-40 pilots of the AVG held their own against Zeros that were considered better aircraft. Training, skill and tactics made the difference.
Besides, everyone knows the Blackburn Skua rules all!

 

[Vincenzo]

There's so many factors in determining an answer for that. You can compare straight numbers, like top speed, power to weight ratio, range, ceiling, firepower. You can compare aesthetics, air to air kills, air to ground kills, etc. Once factor that can't be over stressed is the pilot. The P-40 pilots of the AVG held their own against Zeros that were considered better aircraft. Training, skill and tactics made the difference.
Besides, everyone knows the Blackburn Skua rules all!

The AVG P-40s versus Zeros it's a myth

 

[B-17engineer]

How?

 

[Shortround6]

Possiably because unless the AVG were opposed by Japanese Navy air units the single radial engine retractable gear monoplane fighters they were fighting against would have been Oscars?

I don't know, I don't have the Ja[anese air unit dispositions. Just pointing out a possible answer.

I am also not saying the AVG 'never' encountered Zero's.

 

[Vincenzo]

see here http://www.warbirdforum.com/neumann.htm

 

[FLYBOYJ]

The AVG never fought against the Oscar. There are resources that show no Zeros were operated in Burma during the period the Flying Tigers existed. The Flying Tigers fought mainly against "Nates" and "Oscars."

 

[Njaco]

I seem to remember from "God is My Co-Pilot" that the pilots talked about defeating the Zero and came up with dive and run tactics. I could be wrong. Its been years since I read the book.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Scott (like many of the AVG) might of thought he was fighting against the Zero. The Oscar was mistaken for the Zero continually and visa-versa.

 

[B-17engineer]

Ohhhhh.... Zeros I knew they fought Oscars so when I saw AVG versus Zeroes is a myth I replaced Zeroes with Oscars...

I reject the reality and replace it with my own.

 

[Njaco]

Thanks Joe, that might have been it. Its been many years since reading it.

 

[Elvis]

The AVG never fought against the Oscar. There are resources that show no Zeros were operated in Burma during the period the Flying Tigers existed. The Flying Tigers fought mainly against "Nates" and "Oscars."

I remember that all John Wayne could talk about, in the movie, were "Nakajima fighters".

Elvis

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I remember that all John Wayne could talk about, in the movie, were "Nakajima fighters".

Elvis

Hey, the Duke is never wrong!!!!

 

[Elvis]

That's right, Pilgrim!
Now saddle up those horses and lets get a move on YA!





Elvis

 

[parsifal]

There were 25 Zeroes attached to the 22nd Naval Air Flotilla at the beginning of the war, fighting alongside the 3rd Hikoshidan, which had the only Oscars in the JAAF at that time (about 40 in total).

On the 23rd December approximately half of the 360 aircraft attached to the 3rd air division were transferred to Siam to begin operations over burma. As far as I know, no Oscars were included in that transfer, and none of the 22 air flotilla (or the Zeroes working with that formation....these aircraft were actually drawn from the 23rd Flotilla, which was deployed mainly in Formosa and engaging US forces in the Philipinnes. The Zeroes were redeployed to the southern theatre, when the Japanese learned that the British were transferring Heavy Ships and Hurricanes to help defend Malaya. These transfers were undertaken on the direct orders of Admiral Yammamoto).

Given the specific purpose for which the Yamada detachment (as the Zero formation was called) and the continued resistance being offered by the Hurricanes recently arrived in Singapore, I do not think that any Zeroes were part of the transfers to the new front in Burma. Moreover, I understand that the 22nd Flotilla and the specially attached Aero Formation remained in the Indies after the fall of Singapore.

Both the 22nd and the 23rd ended up in the South West Pacific as far as i know.

 

[Astaldo711]

I didn't mean to open a can of worms when I mentioned the P-40 and Zero. I was just saying that pilot skill must be taken into account. Look what the Finnish pilots did with the Buffalo and the Russians with the P-39. The US had all but written them off.

 

[Shortround6]

Pilot skill must be taken ito account .

THe Finns may have had more skillful pilots than the Russians (or better trained, more hours) This allowed them to use infeior aircraft.
On the other hand the Russian pilots, on average with fewer hours and less training needed a plane not just as good but actually much better so a larger number could survive their first encounters and become seasoned pilots.

Same with early US planes against the Japanese. Certain models of the buffalo might have been able to give a good account of themselves ( and some did against the Japanese) but a lack of groiund support/maintence doomed them. The P-40 was rugged enought to survive some encounters and get it's pilots back home so they could fight again.
The Allied pilots may have been beter trained than the Russians but the Japanese Navy pilots were even better.
Planes lier the Hellcat for the Americans or plans like the Frank latter in the war for the Japanese not only gave experienced pilots a great weapon but gave green pilots a better chance of survivieng first combats to become experinced pilots.

Good or great pilots can make almost any plane look good.

Good or great planes can make pilots look good or help them survive long enough to become great pilots.

Good/great pilots in bad aircraft are going to get whittled down over time with only a few green pilots lasting
long enough to become good/great. Average pilot skill goes down hill as a whole.

 

[Elvis]

Brewster couldn't meet the US Government's quota for outfitting the fleet with Buffalo's and Grumman could.
THAT is why Brewster lost that very lucrative contract.
Plus, the Grumman had more stout landing gear, which meant it stayed in operation for a longer time.
According to test pilots who flew the planes during trials the XF2A-1 was actually the better handling plane, compared to the XF4F-2.
I think the Finns had fairly skilled pilots, in a very "useful" aircraft, during the Continuation War, however, where they gained their experience, I don't know....maybe they were all exceptioinal students.

As for P-40 vs. Zero, here's an interesting set of comments, from the Ace Pilots page on the P-40...

"Joel Paris was a P-40 ace with the 49th Fighter Group in the Southwest Pacific. In Fire in the Sky: The Air War in the South Pacific, he relates his opinion of the P-40:

I never felt that I was a second-class citizen in a P-40. In many ways I thought the P-40 was better than the more modern fighters. I had a hell of a lot of time in a P-40, probably close to a thousand hours. I could make it sit up and talk. It was an unforgiving airplane. It had vicious stall characteristics. ...

If you knew what you were doing, you could fight a Jap on even terms, but you had to make him fight your way. He could outturn you at slow speed. You could outturn him at high speed. When you got into a turning fight with him, you dropped your nose down so you kept your airspeed up, you could outturn him. At low speed he could outroll you because of those big ailerons. They looked like barn doors on the Zero. If your speed was up over 275, you could outroll it. His big ailerons didn't have the strength to make high speed rolls ...

You could push things, too. Because you knew one thing: If you decided to go home, you could go home. He couldn't because you could outrun him. He couldn't leave the fight because you were faster. That left you in control of the fight. Mind you: The P-40 was a fine combat airplane "





Elvis

 

[Shortround6]

I will note that whatever the characteristics were of the XF2A-1 and the XF4f-2 were both planes had changed considerably by the time they saw combat in US service.

I have read accounts that claim many Russian pilots only few about 30 hours a year before the war broke out. I don't know what the Finns flew but it seems to me that pilots that fly 2-3 times the number of hours per year after flight school just might have an advantage regardless of how good a students they were in flight school.

AS for the P-40 thing. I am not going to argue religion with a true beliver.

 

[Elvis]

Shortround6,

I could comment, but that would skew the thread.
If ya' wanna continue this discussion, start a separate thread and send me a link.



Elvis