Best World War II Aircraft? (1 Viewer)

Henk, I've got the documentation at home. I'll post the books from home. As an aside, I know a guy who was on the team that found trace radioactivity from an explosion at Ohrdurf.

Where do you live Bullockracing? I actualy meant delcyros when I said I do not know about what he is saying, but I would love to see those documentation mate.

Henk

I live in Louisiana, USA

Ok, where did you get those papers mate?

Henk

I've built up a respectable little library of books on the subject. I'll have to get home later tonight to give a detailed reference.

That sounds great.

Henk

The Me 264 prototypes had long existed existed, had more than ample range to attack the US and could have been put into production if desired.

The Germans had the necessary nuclear materials to construct a bomb. They just didn't come up with a way to do it.

As far as Jap nukes read part 4 of this multi-part article on the invasion of Japan. http://www.combatsim.com/review.php?id=721

Here is what I have researched regarding nuclear weapons. It is part of a book I have not yet published.

As for voyages to Japan and Germany via submarine with nuclear materials there is the famous U-234 story:

The amount of uranium oxide it contained about 3.5 kilos of U-235. That is about 1/5th-1/3rd the amount needed to make a nuclear bomb. The material certainly found its way to Oakridge but there is no way of knowing specifically what device it was used in.

The Japanese had a substantial amout already gleaned from scouring China for their nuclear research facility in North Korea. They had developed gas centrifuges to refine uranium back in the 1930s. The Germans got into that technology about 1942. The benefit was the lack of heavy water needed. Decrypts of messages point to Germany/Japan transfering this technology and material in 1943-44. When Italy capitulated in 1943 a sub with uranium oxide bound for Japan was surrendered in South Africa.

Also on board the U-234 was lots of cargo. Cargo containers were built to fit in the original mine shafts forward, midships and astern. Four cargo containers were carried topside. 240 tons of cargo were loaded for departure March 25,1945. Cargo included three crated Messershmitt Me-262 jet fighters and an ME-163 rocket-propelled fighter, Henschel HS-293 glider-bomb, extra Junkers jet engines, 10 canisters of uranium oxide, a ton of diplomatic mail, and over 3 tons of technical drawings, plus other technology (torpedo, fuses, armor piercing shells, etc.) Passengers were 9 high technical officers (one general) and civilian scientists.

U-129 and U-195 had delivered 12 V-2s to Japan in 1944. U-859 sunk in 1944 was carrying uranium. There were something like 98 known attempts or successful voyages to Japan so we can only imaging what goodies were sent.

NAZI NUKES©
So you've heard the Germans were nowhere near developing a nuclear bomb like the pair used on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. True enough. But as we fear small, "dirty" nukes in the hands of terrorists today, scientists in Germany had the simple technology in World War II and a means of delivery.

THE THEORIES
Scientists Otto Hahn and Friedrich Strassman created the fission of uranium U-235 in December 1938. The nuclear puzzle in all countries was to stimulate the normally slow emanation of radioactive elements and force them to release their energy all at once. If that could be accomplished considerable destructive power could be wielded. U-238 is a normal non-volatile isotopic metal found in nature. U-235, on the other hand, is highly radioactive. Neither is capable of nuclear fission to produce and explosion without intense transmutation by and outside process.

The goal was to find a way to refine U-235 from its normal one percent radioactive composition in conjunction with the ninety-nine percent composition of U-238. If a refining process attains a three percent figure for U-235, then a reaction is made. Non-volatile U-238, if barraged by radiation, can be transmuted into plutonium and the new element, U-239, is born. This element is weapons grade material.

Nuclear reaction requires that neutrons discharged by decaying atoms need to collide with other atoms nearby causing them to decay as well, hence a chain reaction. Since the neutrons exited at high velocity from U-235 atoms passing through adjacent uranium atoms without effect, a means to slow them down was needed. Early on Germans scientists had used graphite as an agent to slow down the neutrons and cause fission in the atoms. Much later it was concluded that impurities in the graphite absorbed the neutrons instead of simply slowing them down. They had the perfect catalyst and didn't know it. Since there were so few men working on things, experiments couldn't be conducted again. They had to move on. Their loss- our gain!

ENTER HEAVY WATER
For the Virus House team (the code name for the German nuclear project) the next conceivable substance was "heavy water." It is an unusual form or normal H2O, water, in which a form of the hydrogen atom is of heavier atomic weight than, and replaces, the regular hydrogen atom. Heavy water (deuterium oxide) is found in nature and can be separated from normal water in hydro-electric facilities using diverters to isolate it. Such a plant was in operation in Vemonk, Norway and was the basis of the cinema film The Heroes Of Telemark that depicted the underground's destruction of the hydro-electric facilities and dam. It was the Norsk Hydro Hydrogen Electrolysis plant.

In fact the plant was never fully destroyed but the repeated attacks by bombers and saboteurs did accomplish the same thing when production ceased in 1943. By then several tons of deuterium oxide had been gleaned from the dam and were to be shipped to Kaiser Wilhelm Institute in Göttingen, Germany. The transport ship carrying it was sunk but that didn't mean German scientists were without heavy water completely, of course.

Before the facility was taken by the Germans in 1940, French physicists under the direction of Frederic Joliot-Curie had conducted experiments using the heavy water from the plant. 1,000 tons of uranium was captured in Belgium in 1940 as well. The cat was out of the bag. The Germans had the materials.

All evidence discovered as the Allies swept into Germany in the late days of the war pointed to the fact that no suitable nuclear reactor was in operation and that the Germans were years away from a bomb. A large vessel of heavy water with hundreds of uranium cubes suspended in it was depicted as the only thing in existence and that was unworkable.

No, the reactor didn't become critical. Post war calculations showed that a functioning nuclear reactor would have had to be about 1.5 times the size of this reactor. However, expanding the reactor was no longer possible in April 1945 due to the lack of more heavy water and uranium blocks. Again, a slight miscalculation made them elude success.

A SUCCESS?
But in Leipzig in 1942 Werner Heisenberg (1932 Nobel Prize winner – "for the creation of quantum mechanics, the application of which has indirectly led to the discovery of the allotropic forms of hydrogen") was head of atomic research- code named Virus House. His team built a different device. They had two aluminum hemispheres bolted around a central sphere containing heavy water and uranium powder. It measured about 2.5 feet in diameter. The whole affair was submerged in ordinary water for twenty days, cooking. Bubbles were seen to be escaping from the device. When the thing was raised and the access hatch opened a hissing sound was produced followed by a jet of fire.

Alarmed scientists thought somehow the uranium had ignited and promptly drained the heavy water to stop contamination after extinguishing the fire. They resealed the unit and lowered it into the water once more with a sigh of relief.

In a few hours the sphere was discharging bubbles again. This time the tank of coolant water was beginning to boil, so great was the heat generated. Astoundingly the thing commenced to vibrate and physically swell in size! Everyone evacuated the room and the device exploded spewing burning uranium. Fire crews called in poured water on it but it did not douse the ensuing fire. It took two days for the fire to burn itself out.
What was the purpose of this outlandish device? Certainly the scientists were attempting to slow down the neutrons in order to make them interact with the atoms. Remember if U-238 uranium is radiated with U-235 plutonium is created. Beryllium in aluminum has the capability of emitting neutrons when under bombardment of radiation during a process that takes several weeks to accomplish.

So we must ask what purpose that sphere was supposed to accomplish? Why did they put uranium and heavy water together in an aluminum sphere wait three weeks for some results?

With heavy water as a moderator slowing down the neutrons, they could then interact with other atoms.

If the uranium undergoes nuclear bombardment some U-238 will be transmuted into plutonium, while some is transmuted into U-233 that is also fissionable Aluminum has the property of emitting neutrons when bombarded by alpha particles such as those generated by radium but to accomplish this a significant amount of time was required.
con't-

This same experiment was undertaken by an American teenager in the mid-1990s. The results had to be taken to a nuclear disposal site. Since Heisenberg's team was a little smarter than this kid, it is pretty likely that they too produced fissionable material in 1942 since the unquenchable fire was completely Chernobyl-like in its demeanor.

The Amerika Bombers, like the Me 264 and Ju 390 that were never pursued, we must remember that late 1944 saw intense interest in the concept again. Why? The jet power possible to propel bombers high and fast was at hand and not just to deliver conventional bombs. No one was dumb enough to believe that a few tons of explosives would halt the American war effort.

Of course the impetus for the renewed interest in atomic research was the Amerika Bomber that was given the green light along with the A-9/A-10 weapon.

The nuclear apparatus consisted of ten layers of uranium formed into circular plates of different diameters stacked inside the top half of a sphere. The plates did not lie atop of one another but would have had spaces between them so that kerosene could flow between them. So they had alternating layers of uranium and kerosene. Kerosene was used for its excellent absorbsion of the neutrons so that the plates did not interact in an atomic manner.

They used about 551 kilograms of uranium. A tube ran vertically through the bomb's axis. A small ball of beryllium and polonium was used to release a spray of neutrons at the beginning of the fission process. The bottom half of the sphere was filled with a solid ballast, probably steel or iron

USA NUKED!
Let's run a "what if" scenario. The Horten XVIII Amerika Bomber is well above 40,000 feet closing on New York City or Washington D.C. No one has detected it because it is made from layers of wood and carbon glued together. Yes, it is constructed of composites and with its all wing shape it is the first stealth bomber. The four Heinkel-Hirth HeS 011s with 10,600 lbs. of combined thrust are buried in the 130-foot wing. The plane weighed 35 tons on takeoff. The ample 6,835-mile range has brought its three-man crew to the American shores with ease. Two unnecessary 30 mm Mk 108 cannon are there for the slight possibility of defense though its ceiling is a lofty 52,492 feet.

The bombardier now lines up on the Empire State Building or Washington Monument and a 2,200-lb. bomb with an armored nose begins its nine-mile dive. The bomber exits the area at 550 MPH heading home to complete its 27-hour mission.

At supersonic speed the projectile pierces a building. The impact force shears the pins holding uranium plates. The sphere shatters under the pressure of its compressed kerosene load, which then ignites and spews out in all directions. The detonator cap in the nose unleashes a spray of neutrons into the uranium. If the device does not detonate in chain reaction fashion the uranium commences meltdown similar to the 1942 lab incident but not with just uranium powder. Once the material bores through to the water table a mass of superheated water will arise in a colossal cloud of radioactive steam that will poison the area for decades hence.

If all went "well" and the device was delivered via the A-9 the device would have struck with enough force to commence the chain reaction process and detonate in atomic fashion ala Hiroshima/Nagasaki.

By the way, when Göring ordered immediate construction of the Horten Ho XVIIIB in February 1945 the Ho XVIII was simply a larger version of the Ho 9 or Ho 229, which had already flown.

Yes, the real German atomic weapon was a feasible reality. Its construction was quite similar to the experimental sphere. Ten uranium layers were to be spaced within the 2.5-foot diameter sphere so that kerosene could flow between them. Why? Kerosene absorbs neutrons very well to insulate against contact and reaction. Then once the small golf-ball-sized sphere of beryllium is fractured neutrons commence the fission process.

The meltdown scenario is a possibility since the American A-bomb functioned with a 1,000 FPS shot of collision to smash its uranium plates together and produce the chain reaction. A free falling bomb might not travel so fast.

OTHER DELIVERIES
The A-4 or V-2, as it was known, impacted at 3,000 FPS. Quite fast enough, but it hadn't the range to attack the U.S. This is why the A-9/A-10 project was accelerated near the war's end. It was envisioned as early as 1940 as a multi-stage winged rocket. In 1941 Dr. Walter Thiel calculated one engine with 400,000 lbs. thrust could be developed in three years if given priority.

By January 1945 a winged V-2 was successful in trials. A booster with six 56,000 lb. thrust A-4 motors was to be the A-10 that would launch with the A-9 atop it with its 2,200 lb. payload, in this case a nuclear bomb. After boost phase to extraordinary altitude the A-9 would separate and head toward the U.S. gliding on its 29.5-foot wings. Its impact would certainly cause chain reaction and detonation of atomic proportions. The rocket would have a range of 3,105 miles with a 6,500 MPH peak speed.

Paul Harteckk's and Dr. Wilhelm Ohnesorge's research theorized that low temperature for the reactor would work as a dirty bomb. Mixed with sand and dust it would leave behind plutonium and radioactive isotopes after detonation in a V-1 or V-2 warhead. A dirty bomb was feasible and possible at any time of the German program.

Dissention of ideas and the small number of scientists involved fortunately hindered developments. The fundamental theories varied widely and many believed a whole nuclear reactor had to be dropped for a nuclear explosion to occur.

The submarine-towed pods with V-2s was pursued to the point that a Type XXI submarine pod was finished by the war's conclusion earmarked for deployment off the eastern U.S. coast. This was certainly more plausible than the A-9/A-10 in the given time.

At the end of hostilities the French may have found two prototype bomb spheres near Stuttgart submerged in water in a lab. Since they were immersed it meant they were probably ready for testing. They supposedly blew up the complex.

The Germans simply weren't all on the same page in their efforts and Heisenberg and company didn't really grasp the integrals to build a good bomb though they had in their power the ability to construct a "dirty" one. Seemingly what they did discover they didn't capitalize on. Their loss was the Allied world's gain.

PS
But did they fail? Recently it has been pieced together that a dirty bomb with a small amount of uranium triggered by conventional explosives was experimented with in the Ohrdruf concentration camp area of eastern Germany. Ground zero later became a Soviet munitions depot after the war. Higher than normal levels of radioactive isotopes remain though no longer at dangerous levels.

The alleged test was on March 3, 1945 according to eyewitnesses. A vivid flash of light was followed by a column of smoke and nearby residents suffered nosebleeds and nausea for days. Corpses later disposed of were described as hairless with blisters and raw flesh reminiscent of the Japanese radiation victims.

An interesting show on the german ww2 nuclear program will be airing on NOVA (worlds best documentaries) on PBS in the next week or two most of the North Americans should be able to see this

Theres one thing we tend not to dwell on about whether the germans could have built a nuke.

That is the size of the industrial base necessary to build all the componants, integrate them and deploy a warhead.

The US was able to do it just because of the shear size of the economy. But it also took a lot of resources to do it. It was a vast undertaking that took up lots of scientific and technical talent. And that doesnt count the engineering resources needed to build the huge facilities to even begin the production. And all of this was done without the threat of air raids.

Considering how stretched thin Germany was in perfecting its advanced "conventional" weapons, plus they had driven out of the reich the scientists and technicians needed to build the bomb, I can say there is no way germany could have ever built an atomic bomb, even if they had the blueprints. The facilities would have been huge, and definatley would have been bombed on more than one occasion.

I agree with syscom on this. There's an awful lot of what-ifs for Germany to actually build an operational bomb, but given the time and facilities it could have happened, but still not as fast as America. I seriously doubt the ability of any WWII bomber to hit any specific building from a height of 40,000 ft. B-29s over Japan discovered how difficult this was due to the jet stream at 30,000. That being said, given time and facilities, the Horten XVIII Amerika Bomber could have been built as well, but a Ju-290 did come within visual range on NYC before the end of 1944.

No Ju-290 ever came within visual of NYC during WWII, that's a long running myth.

This corresponce to most I read.
However, unbeknown to allied invesstigators (who concentrated more on Heisenbergs Virus House team), the experimental pile Gottow IV -directed by the team around Diebner (who also was the leader of the institute for the french Paris Recyclotron) BECAME CRITICAL in 1944! we do have both, literally and physically evidence (the former is a letter of Diebner to Heisenberg found in moscow archives, who asked Heisenberg about a specific problem, the latter are the trace element analysis from the special place in Gottow). Actually Heisenberg had the wrong theory about the geometric arrangements of uranium for a self sustaining pile while Diebner (since 1942!) had the right idea. Heisenberg fighted Diebner constantly, not accepting his theories except for 1944 and later when he himself turned his arrangement for his last experimental pile (Haigerloch) into a globular shaped arrangement. By this time he simply hadn´t enough uranium for a succesful pile (23 Kg of the material for his experiment were allocated at Thuringia at the team around Diebner and were captured by the soviets subsequently), and he knew about this.
I suggest to read R. Karlsch´s book, it covers recent discoveries (mostly from the now accessable Moscow archives) but is criticised for his assumptions of technical aspects of the bombs intended to build by the Germans. I do not know if it is translated into english yet or not.

The industrial infrastructure needed to produce bomb grade uranium was huge. Were not talking about small buildings here, but plants that are the size of the the steel mills.

In Germany, they would have been bombed. Would it put a halt to development? Nope. Would it delay the effort? Yup!

The US sites were well protected from air attack. In fact, there would have been so few "Amerika Bombers" and hundreds of other targets that had to be bombed, I dont think any air raid would have been done.

Note - the three main Manhattan Project sites were Oak Ridge, Tennessee; Hanford, Washington and Los Alamos, New Mexico. All of them far from German airfields.

The Me 264 had more than ample range at 9,320 miles. And a dirty bomb needs no precise alignment targeting. Close works not only for horseshoes but nukes as well.

The Germans obviously had suffficient uranium oxide to be able to give some to the Japanese. Hell, they had at minimum 1,000 tons of uranium captured from Belgium. And they obviously reached mass and were able to produce plutonium in 1942. The problem simply was that their vessel was too small and the correct use of graphite as a moderator was incorrectly seen as a failure due to impurities in the material. In that the project was underfunded repeat experiments were not economically feasible. Heissenberg was incorrect in his reactor size caluclations. This was the fundamental root of the problem. They mis-assessed their successes, as it were, thankfully.

In that rocketry programs in Germany began in 1919 it is relatively safe to say that had a nuclear program commenced the same year with the A-1's existance in 1930 would have had sufficient time to work through the problems. If the Weimar Republic had dedicated equally to the goal of the nuclear puzzle with the immense resource emphasis they placed on the "aggregate" rockets guys like Einstein would have been working on the solution long before Hitler was a factor in German politics.

nice info.

I thought you meant the amerika bomber had a conventional payload.

Still, while Germany had the resources to design the bomb, they didnt have the resources to build more than one for testing.

Boy, has this thread really jumped. From the C-47 (which is probably the best aircraft of WWII and probably the best aircraft ever) to hypothetical aircraft (the Ju390 and the Me264 did fly, I believe) with hypothetical bombs. My comments:

First. The Manhattan project was huge! Many, many years. Lots and lots of dollars. A great amount of intellectual resources. Germany never committed, and maybe didn't have, the resources to build the A-Bomb in any kind of reasonable time.

Second. I doubt that any of the German aircraft mentioned could have bombed the US. Remember the first A-Bombs weighed about 10000 lbs. The Ju390 performance is based on a bomb load of 3968 lbs. Not quite the 10000 lbs needed. The Me 264, which was similar but lighter than the B-29 might have made a one way but probably not, especially against the jet winds. They may have launched one or two without being detected. But once the first on went off, no more unescorted bombers would have made it. The Horten would have been magical to the job, with any engines available to the Germans! The B-47 with six engines of superior design to any WWII engines could only go about 3800 miles with a 10000 lb bomb load. The YB-49 with a cleaner design (engines are not in pods) and six more powerful engines could only go 3200 miles with 10000 lbs. If you think the Horten is actually cleaner, remember the B-49 actually flew. The Horten would have had to use similar stabilizing fins to make it flyable. Also note that the B-36, which was designed for an intercontinental mission with an A-bomb by a country far more experienced in long range bombers, had six 3500 hp engines and weighed 370,000 lbs, over twice the weight of the Ju390.

Seems there was some design of the Horten that buried six engines in the wing ala B-49. Still 10,000 lbs of bomb with that few lbs thrust and thirsty engines would not make the US.

I reinterate, had the Weimar Republic pursued the nuclear goal with the verve and time given the aggregate rocket program they would have succeeded. Happily for the world they didn't.

The Me 264 had a 9,320 mile range with payload ample for reaching the eastern US and returning. The Ju 390's range was insufficient at 5,750 miles.

The Horten brothers realized that vertical stabs would probably assist lateral stability. They weren't lame. They stated trailing edge lateral control devices were planned. That was not a big deal in the developmental phase of an aircraft project either. NO plane is produced in final flying form from blueprint to the runway. That's what trials are for to make modifications and improvements after input from the pilot and flight engineers.

The grotesque B-36 is no yardstick to measure what is required to achieve long range in a bomber. There is and always has been several paths to any one goal.

The Horten P.18A used 6 engines, was 35 tons loaded and had a projected range of 7,457 miles while the P.18B used 4 turbines and would have a range of 6,835 miles. They were to be built out of composite materials.

Why does it seen that to achieve long range one must build a flying turd like the B-36? There are other ways to do it with grace an finesse. The B-36A weighed 212,800 lbs. loaded and 311,000 lbs. maximum. The B-36H weighed 370,000 in 1956.