Best World war two warships?

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

The Bismarcks Ar 196 were not there for defense, they were on the ship for scouting and mail.

 

[kool kitty89]

I know, that's why there was no offensive armament, but it would have been useful to carry somthing capable of intercepting Swordfish.

Still though, if the Germans had developed aircraft carriers (not Air-ship/Zepplin carriers) along with their other naval tech just prior to the war, it could have been bad for the Allies. Can you immagine a coordinated carrier-based attack (along with the land-based attacks) durring the Battle of britain?

 

[ToughOmbre]

Can you immagine a coordinated carrier-based attack (along with the land-based attacks) durring the Battle of britain?

The RAF and the Royal Navy would have attacked and done major damage to their carrier fleet.

TO

 

[kool kitty89]

What if the carriers were used out of range of RAF fighters? Attacking British shipping coordinated with the handful of submarines available. Probably wouldn't have changed the outcome, but probably alot more damage done before the end.

 

[delcyros]

Ar-196´s were not designed to, but occassionally did fight carrier planes. Tirpitz scrambled two Ar-196 late in 1942, which engaged Fairy Albacore´s. The two Ar-196 were able to put up a shortliving fight until the scouting Albacores found shelter in cloud cover. The Albacores weren´t designed to be used as a fighter, either.

 

[kool kitty89]

But I don't think the Ar-196's used on the Bismark had offensive guns, just the rear MG 15 and were strictly recon a/c. From what I read (Wikipedia mind you) it was the later, land-based versions which carried a foreward armament as heavy as a single MG 17 and 2x MG FF cannons. Of course I don't know a lot on this and if you know otherwise I'd be glad to hear it.

On the other hand, all models of Swordfish and Albacores carried a single foreward .303 machine gun in addition to rear mounts (up to 2 .303 rear guns in the Albacore), not much but better than nothing and useful for ranging in for bombing, though not much for torpedo runs.

 

[delcyros]

Bismarck and Tirpitz were equipped with Ar-196A3, which serially had two 20mm forward firing guns:

Battleship Bismarck, German Kriegsmarine

however, Bismarck couldn´t launch any Ar-196 due to the problem of the damaged launch catapult.

 

[kool kitty89]

And I guess the couldn't take off from the water either. (no wat to lower them)

How were the Ar-196's retreived after a mission. Was there a retrieval crane? If so it may have been possible to lower them into the water for take-off, though the water may have been too rough.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

And I guess the couldn't take off from the water either. (no wat to lower them)

How were the Ar-196's retreived after a mission. Was there a retrieval crane? If so it may have been possible to lower them into the water for take-off, though the water may have been too rough.

Yes the Ar 196's could take off from the water. There was a crain to retrieve them and therefore it could lower them.

however, Bismarck couldn´t launch any Ar-196 due to the problem of the damaged launch catapult.

I have allways wondered why they did not just lower them into the water to launch them unless the seas were to heavy at the time.

 

[delcyros]

They couldn´t lower them due to the seastate (force 7). The waves had gale and were much taller than the Ar-196. It would be suicidal.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

They couldn´t lower them due to the seastate (force 7). The waves had gale and were much taller than the Ar-196. It would be suicidal.

That is what I allways thought. Thanks.

 

[Don Cook]

..rather strange how this discussion is placed in a ww1 mainlevel topic.
Ok-my two cents on:
1.) BB: umm, Yamato for me. (unmatched protection and firepower (Iowas super heavy AP MK 8 shells were equal only for armor penetration at very long ranges, at medium to close range nothing could match an 18.1" AP round as nothing could match the japanese 18.1" shells in pure terms of destructiveness)-key factors for battleships)
2.) BC: Hood (handsome ship, decent speed, decent firepower, prestigeous)
3.) CV: This should belong to the Essex class, no doubt
4.) CA: Prinz Eugen (best firecontroll of all ww2 cruisers, excellent AA, balanced design)
5.) CL: The Fiji´s were impressive on papers, only. I would go for RN Jamaica!
6.) DD: Fletcher for me.
7.) MTB/EB: E-boats (for personal reasons, my grandfather served on them)
8.) subs: Type XXI, unmatched.

-tow points on Iowa vs Yamato: 1.) compare armor protection (and I underline that you cannot simply degrade japanese armor qualities. One sample tested by the US represented the best ever tested face hardened plate in history, another was crap): Iowa is very, very vulnarable to Yamato while vice versa Yamato is well protected against Iowa. -keep in mind that it´s decapping plate is myth only, IT WOULD NEVER DECAP ANY BB used APC ROUND! 2.) Firecontroll: The US Radar advantage is valid for 1944 and later (by 1945 Yamato had sophisticated Radar as well) with MK 8 firecontroll. During Gudacanal Wahsington still depended on visual tracking for elevating the guns. Yamato had the most sophisticated optical firecontroll device ever. The advantage would be for the US in night engagements and up to 32.000 yrds while any engagements under clear weather would give Yamato an advantage. The speed advantage of Iowa is doubtful for sustained periods under battle damage: completely unprotected bow and worser metacentric height.

I have seen and touched the Prinz Eugen (sister ship to the Bismark) it is in the Marshall Islands close to Kwajaleine missle range it is capsized with screws exposed off the atoll of Carlos (Eniwebegan)in around 100 feet of water.
Germany retrieved the screws (props) and returned them to the motherland. There are also alot of Liberty concrete ships troop transporters around the area also. Just thought I would let you know I saw it. Don

 

[delcyros]

Thanks Don. I admit that I would lend my left arm to have been there, too!

 

[renrich]

Prinz Eugen was a heavy cruiser so could not be a sister ship to Bismarck, a battleship. Bismarck's sister ship was Tirpitz. Perhaps you meant she was Bismarck's consort.

 

[fly boy]

battle ship: yamato
hevy curser:Us kind
light curser:US kind with 5in guns
destoryer:felchter class
sub:USS nautalis
carrier:USS enterpirse
pt boat: US kind

 

[parsifal]

I have nominated the best Allied, the best Axis, and then the best overall
CV
Allied: Essex
Axis: Zuikaku
Overall: Essex
CVL
Allied: Colossus
Axis: Zuiho
Overall: Colossus
CVE
Allied: Attacker
Axis: Taiyo
Overall: Attacker
BB
Allied: Iowa
Axis: Yamato
Overall: Yamato
BC
Allied Hood
Axis: Scharnhorst
Overall Hood
CA/CS (Pocket Battleship)
Allied: Boston
Axis: Nachi
Overall Boston
CL
Allied Brooklyn
Axis: Abruzzi
Overall Brooklyn
CLAA/DDAA
Allied Atlanta
Axis Akitsuki
Overall Akitsuki
DD
Allied Gearing
Axis Shimakaze
Overall Shimakaze
TB
Allied Le Fier
Axis Matsu
Overall Matsu
MTB
Allied MTB 511 (93 ft Vosper type)
Axis: S-100 (114 ft type)
Overall S 100
Submarine
Allied Gato
Axis Type XXI
Overall Type XXI

 

[starling]

do not forget the hunt class destroyrs,that helped out during d-day.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Prinz Eugen was a heavy cruiser so could not be a sister ship to Bismarck, a battleship. Bismarck's sister ship was Tirpitz. Perhaps you meant she was Bismarck's consort.

Good catch. I am surprised I did not catch that. The only sister ship the Bismarck had was the Tirpitz.

I am sure though is talking about escort.

 

[renrich]

flyboy, are you saying that the US CLs with 5 inch guns were the best CLs? Those were built for use as AA cruisers and were really handicapped in a surface action.

 

[timshatz]

Parsifal, not a bad list. Good pics in there.

Not sure about the destoyer pics though. Granted, I'm partial to the Gearings (served on one) but the Shimakaze looked like an updated 30s design. Granted, it was big and fairly fast. But it looks like a wet ride.

More like an oversized torpedo boat than a fleet destroyer.

Maybe it shows a different design philosophy.