syscom3
Pacific Historian
As early as 1942, the IJN was using passive detection of US radar beams to determine approximate locations of naval forces.
Best World war two warships?
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As early as 1942, the IJN was using passive detection of US radar beams to determine approximate locations of naval forces.
delcyros
Tech Sergeant
True, gun platform rating of DD´s typically was low but Shimakaze bested it´s contenders in this aspect (mostly thanks to her advantage in size).
It´s also true that the proxy fuze improves AAA capabilities and the japanese didn´t had one.
That doesn´t make her a poor performer, either. Shimakaze was packed up with 25mm and the IJN considered that gun adaequate (I personally would prefer the 40mm anytime, too). The 5"/50 is not as good an AAA as the 3.9"/65 of the A. class DD´s (which most scholars regard as the best ww2 DP gun) but it is not bad in the AAA role and definetely superior in the surface role.
Shimakaze had longer legs than other DD´s and could outrun most as well.
An interesting what if remains in case Shimakaze would not have been packed up with survivors at Samar, keeping her away from action. Her torpedo battery never would find such a formidable target rich environment again.
It´s also true that the proxy fuze improves AAA capabilities and the japanese didn´t had one.
That doesn´t make her a poor performer, either. Shimakaze was packed up with 25mm and the IJN considered that gun adaequate (I personally would prefer the 40mm anytime, too). The 5"/50 is not as good an AAA as the 3.9"/65 of the A. class DD´s (which most scholars regard as the best ww2 DP gun) but it is not bad in the AAA role and definetely superior in the surface role.
Shimakaze had longer legs than other DD´s and could outrun most as well.
An interesting what if remains in case Shimakaze would not have been packed up with survivors at Samar, keeping her away from action. Her torpedo battery never would find such a formidable target rich environment again.
Glider
Captain
Delc
I agree with a lot of what you said its just my belief that overall she wasn't as good as the Sunner Class. Its worth noting that to significantly increase the number of 25mm carried she had to lose wher X turret leaving her with 4 x 5in and 28 x 25mm
Syscom
I was't aware of the Japanese use of passive location, much appreciated.
I agree with a lot of what you said its just my belief that overall she wasn't as good as the Sunner Class. Its worth noting that to significantly increase the number of 25mm carried she had to lose wher X turret leaving her with 4 x 5in and 28 x 25mm
Syscom
I was't aware of the Japanese use of passive location, much appreciated.
Ghostdancer
Airman
I don't know if either of these ships were even included in any of the Japanese Navy's planned operations. Their only action was when they were sunk by carrier planes. Well, I know that this was the fate of the Yamato, was the Musashi also sunk by carrier planes?
renrich
Chief Master Sergeant
Yamato and Musashi were both sunk by carrier AC. It was Musashi, I think, who fired her main battery at Leyte Gulf at the surface ships of Sprague. I don't believe she made any hits. Both Musashi and Yamato fired their main batteries whilst being attacked by ac.
delcyros
Tech Sergeant
Yamato actually fired her main battery in combat during oct. 1944 against Taffy 3 off Samar.
Altough actual evidence is problematic at best, the survivors of USS Gambier Bay (CVE) believe that they received critical damage from 18" rounds and Yamato claimed hits on an escort carrier and a destroyer. Probably these rounds -if APC- did only caused large holes but went through the entire hull. Evidence is overwhelming that critical damage was done by 8" rounds fired from the cruisers. It should be noted that in this action, Yamato and a superior cruiser force were chased off by very skillfully deployed US DD attacks, preventing that Yamato could be utitlized to it´s full potential. In theory, the IJN enjoiing numerical and force advantage should be able to wipe out Taffy 1-3 entirely as no CVE had a speed to disengage...
Altough actual evidence is problematic at best, the survivors of USS Gambier Bay (CVE) believe that they received critical damage from 18" rounds and Yamato claimed hits on an escort carrier and a destroyer. Probably these rounds -if APC- did only caused large holes but went through the entire hull. Evidence is overwhelming that critical damage was done by 8" rounds fired from the cruisers. It should be noted that in this action, Yamato and a superior cruiser force were chased off by very skillfully deployed US DD attacks, preventing that Yamato could be utitlized to it´s full potential. In theory, the IJN enjoiing numerical and force advantage should be able to wipe out Taffy 1-3 entirely as no CVE had a speed to disengage...
eddie_brunette
Senior Airman
Ok, I'm not very big on the ships, but what about the little PT Boats? Saw "Battle Stations" on THC and those guys really were insane or have steel, copper or golden balls
ColesAircraft
Airman 1st Class
Attachments
Most certainly not!
She was sunk by Aircraft Carrier Aircraft.
Aircraft Carriers are the most powerful weapons (minus Nukes).
ColesAircraft
Airman 1st Class
Actually, an aircraft carrier is a big barge with a flat top, and aircraft are individual machines with limited individual power. Yamato was a single operating machine, excluding launches and recon aircraft.
- Ron
- Ron
delcyros
Tech Sergeant
Carrier have replaced battleships as the prime weapon of naval warfare mostly because they do project firpower over a larger area. While a BB may project it´s firepower to no more than 20nm distance, a carrier does this to no less than 200nm distance.
The aircraft can project more firepower with its aircraft. It is a more deadlier weapon. That is why after WW2 most Navies stopped building and using Battleships and building Aircraft Carriers.
The largest and most powerful ships ever built by man to this date are the Nimitz Class Carriers (again excluding Nuclear Subs and so forth but this is about largest and therefore it is the Carrier.)
Carrier Airpower proved to be the end of the Battleship.
ToughOmbre
Senior Master Sergeant
The Yamato never proved herself in combat. Adler is right, the aircraft carrier rules.
And by the way, one on one, I would take any Iowa class BB over the Yamato.
TO
And by the way, one on one, I would take any Iowa class BB over the Yamato.
TO
ccheese
Member In Perpetuity
Has anyone thought what we would have done without all those
landing craft ? They seemed pretty important at every amphibious landing
the US undertook !!
Charles
landing craft ? They seemed pretty important at every amphibious landing
the US undertook !!
Charles
ToughOmbre
Senior Master Sergeant
No doubt Charles. But I wouldn't classify them as warships.
My old man came ashore on Utah Beach on an LCVP.
TO
delcyros
Tech Sergeant
Both, Yamato and Musashi prooved theirselfe in combat, at least four times I am aware off.
A single ww2 CV may hurt a modern BB but has little to no chance to sink any of the modern BB´s (barring a fluke hit like Bismarck). What Yamato Musashi doomed was a concentration of US aircrafts which was unbelievable previously, including well over 300 bombers and deficiancies of their designed protective scheme (the thick and almost impenetrable belt had faulty rivetting, the inclined lower belt was prone to give way due to beeing installed non vertically and the whole protected box covered to little of the waterline).
Land based bombers could make full effect from either guided APC freefall bombs (Do-217K with Fitz-X) or superheavy bombs (Lancaster with Tallboys or Grand Slam), both of those may easily sink a modern BB.
But those modern ww2 BB´s were reasonably well protected against bombs dropped from carrier strike planes and eventually also from aircraft torpedoes, prior to introduction of Torpex as warhead.
A single ww2 CV may hurt a modern BB but has little to no chance to sink any of the modern BB´s (barring a fluke hit like Bismarck). What Yamato Musashi doomed was a concentration of US aircrafts which was unbelievable previously, including well over 300 bombers and deficiancies of their designed protective scheme (the thick and almost impenetrable belt had faulty rivetting, the inclined lower belt was prone to give way due to beeing installed non vertically and the whole protected box covered to little of the waterline).
Land based bombers could make full effect from either guided APC freefall bombs (Do-217K with Fitz-X) or superheavy bombs (Lancaster with Tallboys or Grand Slam), both of those may easily sink a modern BB.
But those modern ww2 BB´s were reasonably well protected against bombs dropped from carrier strike planes and eventually also from aircraft torpedoes, prior to introduction of Torpex as warhead.
ToughOmbre
Senior Master Sergeant
"four times"
Yamato and Musashi fired there 18.1 inch guns only once in anger at enemy ships (Battle of Leyte Gulf) with no confirmed hits. Yamato withdrew, Musashi was sunk.
Yamato was caught by American carrier aircraft and sunk during "Operation Ten-Go", the suicide mission to Okinawa in 1945.
Just when and where did Yamato and Musashi "prove themselves in combat"?
TO
delcyros
Tech Sergeant
Beside of non combat operations
No.1 (25th of dec. 1943):
Yamato beeing torpedoed off Truk by USS Skate in dec. 1943.
Altough in this action Yamato did not actively attacked an enemy, she showed elementary damage controll actions, justifying the term "combat prooven". The joint between upper and lower belt failed between frame 151 and 173 and thus a large amount of floodwater entered the ship. Yamatos crew was able to contain the flooding and stabilize the ship.
No.2 (24th of oct. 44):
Musashi and Yamato firing their main artillery off Sibuyan Sea against enemy planes (with delay fuzed special AA shells). Musashi received a possible max. of 17 bomb and 18 torpedo hits (altough 9 torpedohits are more credible estimates according to DC reports of it´s survivors) and eventually sunk later. Yamato received a total of 3 bomb hits and continued to proceed for Leyte.
No. 3 (25th of oct. 44):
Yamato continues to proceed into the Leyte Gulf, resulting in the battle of Samar, Yamato fired a total of 106 18.1" rounds, contributing to the sinking of 2 DD´s and the CVE Gambier Bay.
No. 4 (7th of april 45):
So called "Kamikaze"-sortie of Yamato against US operations of Okinawa. Yamato beeing subject of 386 carrier strike sorties, in whiches cause she received up to 13 torpedohits and 8 heavy bomb hits. Yamato fired her main battery against enemy planes, altough with no effect and finally succombed to the damage received.
That are four events in open sea, where she either attacked or was subject of enemy attacks. Few ww2 modern BB had such a "tight" operational record.
No.1 (25th of dec. 1943):
Yamato beeing torpedoed off Truk by USS Skate in dec. 1943.
Altough in this action Yamato did not actively attacked an enemy, she showed elementary damage controll actions, justifying the term "combat prooven". The joint between upper and lower belt failed between frame 151 and 173 and thus a large amount of floodwater entered the ship. Yamatos crew was able to contain the flooding and stabilize the ship.
No.2 (24th of oct. 44):
Musashi and Yamato firing their main artillery off Sibuyan Sea against enemy planes (with delay fuzed special AA shells). Musashi received a possible max. of 17 bomb and 18 torpedo hits (altough 9 torpedohits are more credible estimates according to DC reports of it´s survivors) and eventually sunk later. Yamato received a total of 3 bomb hits and continued to proceed for Leyte.
No. 3 (25th of oct. 44):
Yamato continues to proceed into the Leyte Gulf, resulting in the battle of Samar, Yamato fired a total of 106 18.1" rounds, contributing to the sinking of 2 DD´s and the CVE Gambier Bay.
No. 4 (7th of april 45):
So called "Kamikaze"-sortie of Yamato against US operations of Okinawa. Yamato beeing subject of 386 carrier strike sorties, in whiches cause she received up to 13 torpedohits and 8 heavy bomb hits. Yamato fired her main battery against enemy planes, altough with no effect and finally succombed to the damage received.
That are four events in open sea, where she either attacked or was subject of enemy attacks. Few ww2 modern BB had such a "tight" operational record.
ToughOmbre
Senior Master Sergeant
Quite an impressive record
Doesn't come close to the combat records of almost any American BB, not to mention the CVs. Those two Japanese battleships were not much more than floating headquarters.
TO
mkloby
Senior Master Sergeant
Good info Del - but I would hesitate to equate "bullet sponge" with "combat proven."
