Best WWII fighter pilot....?

drgondog said:

I voted for Bar but it is impossible (for me) to make an objective choice. Absent each of these guys entering combat from a level head on pass and then having an elimination 'fly off' at different altitudes to force different tactics and skills how would we have a perspective of the best combat flyer, much less the 'best fighter pilot'.

I could have just as easily picked Preddy or Hanson or Bong or Gabby Gabreski or Johnny Johnson or Stanford Tuck or anyone on that excellent list - all great fighter pilots that didn't have near the opportunity to score - and almost all of their scores over enemy territory where there was no second (or 18th) chance.

Click to expand...

I agree with you 100%. That is why I said this poll is just for fun. I really wish people would start voting for pilots not based off of how many kills they had, it would start up interesting conversations.

I really hoping that was going to happen and then people could learn about other pilots as well.

Since alot of us are voting for Heinz, I would like to add another overlooked pilot of the Luftwaffe that closely parralled Bar's combat record.

Major Erich Rudorffer of JG 2

from;

Aces of the Luftwaffe - Erich Rudorffer

Erich Rudorffer scored a total of 224 victories, placing him 7th on the all time list. This score did not come without a cost: Rudorffer flew over 1,000 missions, entering combat on 302 occasions, was shot down 16 times, and baled out 9 times! Of note are the 58 Il-2 Sturmoviks included in his 138 Eastern Front victories (all while flying the Fw 190) and the 10 four-engined bombers shot down in Reichsverteidigung missions.

Flew in every theatre as Bar and had almost a carbon copy of Bar's war record.

As indicated I voted for Marseille , as i think he was the best of WW2 but if I had to opt for an allied pilot it would have to be Buerling he much the same as the pilots flying in Guadalcanal was battling disease , small rations , beat up aircraft but he was also flying against a better foe IMHO. There is no doubt in my mind the LW and RA aircraft would be much tougher foes then the Japanese for one reason the aircraft he was facing were a tougher bird.

I can't deside between Marseilles or Hartmann...

Hartmann was an aw inspiring shot and Marseilles was a master of dogfighting. Furthermore Marseilles fought exclusively against the Western Allies whilst Hartmann flew almost exclusively against the VVS.

That having been said, it's really very hard to decide which pilot is the best with so many great choices, I mean there are probably a dozen or more German pilots with 100 or more kills which were as good as the top scoring aces but didn't get as many opportunities, and the same goes for some Allied pilots.

Josef Priller is another excellent choice, having shot down 68 Spitfires, 2 P-47's 2 P-51's.

Three letters for my answer:

Bar

Njaco said:

Since alot of us are voting for Heinz, I would like to add another overlooked pilot of the Luftwaffe that closely parralled Bar's combat record.

Major Erich Rudorffer of JG 2

from;

Aces of the Luftwaffe - Erich Rudorffer

Erich Rudorffer scored a total of 224 victories, placing him 7th on the all time list. This score did not come without a cost: Rudorffer flew over 1,000 missions, entering combat on 302 occasions, was shot down 16 times, and baled out 9 times! Of note are the 58 Il-2 Sturmoviks included in his 138 Eastern Front victories (all while flying the Fw 190) and the 10 four-engined bombers shot down in Reichsverteidigung missions.

Flew in every theatre as Bar and had almost a carbon copy of Bar's war record.

Click to expand...

Added him.

Thanks Adler, I just mentioned him for discusion sake.

Njaco said:

Since alot of us are voting for Heinz, I would like to add another overlooked pilot of the Luftwaffe that closely parralled Bar's combat record.

Major Erich Rudorffer of JG 2

from;

Aces of the Luftwaffe - Erich Rudorffer

Erich Rudorffer scored a total of 224 victories, placing him 7th on the all time list. This score did not come without a cost: Rudorffer flew over 1,000 missions, entering combat on 302 occasions, was shot down 16 times, and baled out 9 times! Of note are the 58 Il-2 Sturmoviks included in his 138 Eastern Front victories (all while flying the Fw 190) and the 10 four-engined bombers shot down in Reichsverteidigung missions.

Flew in every theatre as Bar and had almost a carbon copy of Bar's war record.

Click to expand...

Rudorffer was a good pilot no doubt, but there is some question about more then a few of his claims.

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:

I agree with you 100%. That is why I said this poll is just for fun. I really wish people would start voting for pilots not based off of how many kills they had, it would start up interesting conversations.

I really hoping that was going to happen and then people could learn about other pilots as well.

Click to expand...

OKay, as for brilliant pilots who didn't shoot down many, dutch pilot Gerben Sonderman is a contender. He was a test pilot with Fokker before the war, entered service in 1940 and flew G.I's. He shot down 1 a/c during the mobilisation and 3 german a/c during 10-14 of may 1940. More than any other dutch fighter pilot. Didn't have the change to fly anymore during the war, but went into the resistance. Collegues thought of him as a brilliant pilot, very skillfull. He died in the USA while demonstrating a Fokker S.4 jet trainer in 1955. I bought the book about his live, but didn't read it, yet. But I think he was a promising one, not having the chance to prove himself more as he only flew for 5 days during the war.

I voted for Ginger out of Patriotic fervor

He epitomizes the idiotic British eccentric pilot fellow. He lost so many planes getting his 28 kills you wonder if it was worth it. He was a lunatic flyer who cared little for his own safety and an all round nice chap.

Soren said:

I can't deside between Marseilles or Hartmann...

Hartmann was an aw inspiring shot and Marseilles was a master of dogfighting. Furthermore Marseilles fought exclusively against the Western Allies whilst Hartmann flew almost exclusively against the VVS.

Click to expand...

Hi Soren,

I am curious as to where you read that Hartmann was an 'awe-inspiring shot'. He was certainly a very shrewd fighter pilot - he had a very cautious style and wouldn't engage unless he had all the advantages possible. In short he had the qualities of a great fighter pilot in that he was like a bird of prey; he would only attack when the risk to himself (and to his wingman) was minimal and the chances of success were very great.

However, as to him being an awesome shot; he said himself that he would only open fire when the windshield was filled with the enemy, when he was so close he couldn't miss!

Marseille on the other hand WAS considered to be an amazing 'marksman', both officially and by his squadron-mates (see my last post in this thread).

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:

I agree with you 100%. That is why I said this poll is just for fun. I really wish people would start voting for pilots not based off of how many kills they had, it would start up interesting conversations.

Click to expand...

Indeed. The question was 'Best WWII fighter pilot'.

Surely there are other, and in some respects more important, qualities than just shooting ability! What about being less concerned with personal victory scores and more about the welfare of a wingman/flight/squadron/group and completing mission objectives? What about the foresight and perception to develop new tactics/test new weapons? What about the ability to lead a large formation into battle and to have both the situational awareness to survive yourself AND to make 'on-the-spot' decisions/give commands regarding the bigger picture?

How many pilots could do all of these things and still make the kills???

Surely there are other, and in some respects more important, qualities than just shooting ability! What about being less concerned with personal victory scores and more about the welfare of a wingman/flight/squadron/group and completing mission objectives? What about the foresight and perception to develop new tactics/test new weapons? What about the ability to lead a large formation into battle and to have both the situational awareness to survive yourself AND to make 'on-the-spot' decisions/give commands regarding the bigger picture?

Click to expand...

Thats exactly why I choose Bar. I'm more impressed with him being able to successfully function in all theatres and aircraft throughout the war. Rudorffer, although his claims are questionable, I feel followed this criteria also.

That was a great post JimmywiT!

I decided to read more about him so here is a short biography:

James 'Ginger' Lacey



James Harry Lacey was born on February 1st 1917 at Wetherby, Yorkshire, and left King James' Grammar School, Knaresborough in 1933. After four years as an apprentice pharmacist he joined the RAFVR (Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve) in January 1937 as a trainee pilot at Perth, Scotland. Two years later, he joined 1 Squadron at Tangmere

When war was declared in September 1940 he was posted to 501 Squadron, which was based at Filton. On May 10th, 1940, the Squadron moved to France where he experienced his first combat. On May 13th, Lacey destroyed a Bf109, a He111 and a Bf110. He shot down two more He111's on May 27th before the Squadron was withdrawn back to England in June. During his operational duties in France he was awarded the French Croix de Guerre

During the Battle of Britain, Lacey became one of the highest scoring pilots of the conflict. His first kill of the battle was on July 20th when he shot down a Bf109. He then claimed a destroyed Ju87 and a "probable" Ju87 on August 12th along with a damaged Bf110 and damaged Do17 on August 15th, a probable Bf109 on August 16th, he destroyed a Ju88, damaged a Do17 on August 24th and shot down a Bf109 on August 29th

On August 23rd, Lacey was awarded the DFM

On August 30th, during combat over the Thames Estuary, Lacey shot down a He111 and damaged a Bf110 before his Hurricane was badly hit from enemy fire. His engine stopped and he decided to glide the stricken aircraft back to the airfield at Gravesend instead of baling out into the Estuary

A highly successful August was completed when he destroyed a Bf109 on the 31st

On September 2nd Lacey shot down two Bf109's and damaged a Do17. He then shot down another two Bf109's on September 5th. During a heavy raid on September 13th he engaged a number of He111's over London and Kent where he shot down one of the bombers that had just bombed Buckingham Palace before his Hurricane was badly hit from return fire. He baled out of his burning aircraft sustaining small injuries and burns

Returning to the action shortly after, he shot down a He111, three Bf109's and damaged another on September 15th, one of the most heaviest days of fighting during the whole battle which later became known as "Battle of Britain day"

Two days later on the 17th, he was shot down over Ashford, Kent during a dogfight and baled out without injury. On September 27th he destroyed a Bf109 and damaged a Ju88 on the 30th. During October he claimed a probable Bf109 on the 7th, shot down a Bf109 on the 12th, another on the 26th and on October 30th he destroyed a Bf109 before damaging another

During the Battle of France and the Battle of Britain, Lacey had been shot down or forced to land due to combat no less than nine times

On November 26th, Lacey received a Bar to his DFM for his continued outstanding courage and bravery during the Battle of Britain

In January 1941 he was commissioned and promoted to Acting Flight Lieutenant in June. On July 10th, as "A" Flight Commander, he shot down a Bf109 and damaged another a few days later on the 14th. On July 17th he shot down a He59 seaplane and two Bf109's on the 24th. He was posted away from combat during August 1941 as a flight instructor

During March 1942, Lacey joined 602 Squadron, based at Kenley and by March 24th had claimed an Fw190. He shot down another Fw190 on April 25th before a posting to 81 Group as a Tactics Officer and later that year, in November, as Chief Instructor at the No: 1 Special Attack Instructors School, Milfield

In March 1943 Lacey was posted to 20 Squadron, Kaylan in India before joining 1572 Gunnery Flight in July of the same year to convert from Blenheims to Hurricanes and then to Thunderbolts. He stayed in India, being posted to 155 Squadron in November 1944 and then 17 Squadron later that same month. Whilst based in India, Lacey's only "victory" was on February 19th, 1945, shooting down a Japanese, Nakajima "Oscar"

After the War was over, he went to Japan with 17 Squadron in March 1946 before returning back to the UK in May 1946. After receiving a permanent commission in December 1948, Lacey finally retired from the RAF on March 5th, 1967, as a Flight Lieutenant and retained the rank of Squadron Leader

James "Ginger" Lacey died on May 30th 1989 at the age of 72. In September 2001, a plaque was unveiled at Priory Church, Bridlington, Yorkshire in memory of the fighter pilot and ace.

World War II Aces - James "Ginger" Lacey

Not too short I guess.

I think I will vote for Heinz Bar over Hartmann in the later polls, as many have already. He does sound like a couragous pilot and more worthy than his competitor, Gordon Gollob.

Gordon Gollob


A very Pro-Nazi man, he was not well liked by his fellow pilots. He achieved 150 victories, and was fond of attacking beneath an enemy formation with a spiraling climb.

Johannes Steinhoff had this to say about him:

"Well, I will say this, then I will say nothing else about Gollob. Losses soared under his leadership everywhere he went, much like Göring in the first war. He placed leaders in command of units not because of their competence, but due to their loyalty to the Nazi Party, which were very few in the Jagdwaffe."

In many ways Gollob was the opposite of Heinz Bar.



Poor Galland hasn't got a vote yet. I wonder if he will survive to the next level.

Should we include nightfighter aces into this or was/is there another tread for that....? Can't remember....too lazy to look..

If you wish to add a night fighter pilot, post it here and tell why you think he should be included and then he will be added.

I was more thinking for the sake of discussion Adler...It's plenty of names that list you've put up already, don't want the thing cover a whole page do we...

Maj Heinz-Wolfgang SCHNAUFER, 121
Obst Helmut LENT, 102
Both flying the Bf-110

Hptm Heinrich Alexander Prinz SAYN-WITTGENSTEIN, 83
Flying the Ju-88

Obst Werner STREIB, 66
Flying the Bf-110 and the He-219

Hptm Heinz ROEKKER, 64
Six kills in one night....

Maj Rudolf SCHOENERT, 64
Flying the Dornier Do-217 and Bf-110

Vote Adolf Galland!

Lucky13 said:

Maj Heinz-Wolfgang SCHNAUFER, 121
Obst Helmut LENT, 102
Both flying the Bf-110

Click to expand...

Speaking of Schnaufer, here is a pic I took of his tail fin from his Bf-110 which is part of the Australian War Memorial's collection. Most impressive..

Wow! That's a lot of planes! I have never seen an ace's plane with so many kills on it.