Best WWII fighter pilot....?

lesofprimus · Apr 19, 2008

marshall said:
I haven't said that Urbanowicz was a better pilot than great German aces,

When Adler asked if u wanted ur vote changed from Gabreski to Urbanowicz, u said yes, which means u voted for him.... Nationistic pride is great and all, but be realistic... Voting for something simply for a nations pride is dumb and uneducated, to say the least.... If u dont know enough about the subject, why fu*kin vote???

also I don't think that you don't have any idea what are you talking about,

Oh really dumb-ass??? I guess that since my Grandfather was an Ace, and I grew up in the Black Sheep Community with other Aces, including Boyington, I guess I am clueless... Or how about the conversations Ive had with Galland or Yeager or Gabreski or Vejtasa or etc etc... I guess I have no idea on the subject.... U had best keep ur fu*kin moth shut moron or I will break it off in ur ass.... Dont piss of a Moderator, ever heard of that???

I said that I'm not able to tell who was the best.

Then why should ur opinion in this thread have any bearing??? U are un-educated in this topic, so maybe u should shut ur yap and read what others who DO have the experience on the subject are saying....

but does in a 1 on 1 dogfight always wins the guy with more kills under his belt? I don't think so.

Then u think wrong.... 9 outta 10 times, the more experienced pilot will take it to the greenie, in a very bad way... Ask the Russian VVS about that, would u.... And always is a strong word however, since there are a few instances where a rookie took out an accomplished Experten, but they are VERY very limited....

And besides the point, over 75% of all shootdowns were not dogfights, but bounces where the victim had no idea he was flying straight into an Aces gunsight....

P1234567890 · Apr 19, 2008

lesofprimus said:
Oh really dumb-ass??? I guess that since my Grandfather was an Ace, and I grew up in the Black Sheep Community with other Aces, including Boyington, I guess I am clueless... Or how about the conversations Ive had with Galland or Yeager or Gabreski or Vejtasa or etc etc... I guess I have no idea on the subject.... U had best keep ur fu*kin moth shut moron or I will break it off in ur ass.... Dont piss of a Moderator, ever heard of that???

I think you misunderstood our Polish friend. He wasn't saying that we are clueless. His original sentence contained a double negative. He said, "I don't think that you don't have any idea..." He also seems to have changed his mind, and now he isn't voting for anyone.

In any case, I have a question for everyone here who voted for Baer over Marseille. Why do you think he was the best?

Wayne Little · Apr 19, 2008

P1234567890 said:
In any case, I have a question for everyone here who voted for Baer over Marseille. Why do you think he was the best?

Reasons were given....as to why....

Catch22 · Apr 19, 2008

And the Minister has spoken...

And as for your question my fellow Canadian, If you just look at the score he racked up in such short a time, and the fact that he used like 60 bullets per kill just shows that he was the best. Don't get me wrong, Baer was a great pilot, but Marseille would have easily beaten his score, and most likely Hartmann's as well.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Apr 19, 2008

P1234567890 said:
In any case, I have a question for everyone here who voted for Baer over Marseille. Why do you think he was the best?

Because I think he was overall the better pilot...

Why? For reasons that I stated above and because I think he was an overall more rounded pilot. He few everything from the Ju 52 to the Me 262.

Now if Marseille had survived the war then my opinion might have changed.

Lucky13 · Apr 19, 2008

Hartmann shot down his first Soviet victim on 5 November 1942, an Il-2 from 7 GShAP (7th Guards Ground Attack Aviation Regiment)..... Marseille, shot down his last 156-158 on the 26th of September 1942...
One just getting started and one KIA. I wonder what kinda score Marseille would have racked up if he'd been posted on the eastern front later....

Catch22 · Apr 19, 2008

Speaking of aces, I know he's not on the list, but how many kills did Rudel actually have? On Wikipedia it says both 13 and 9. I need to know the correct one for my project.

Lucky13 · Apr 19, 2008

Well, he did like to cause a lot of damage....flew 2,530 combat missions and successfully attacked many tanks, trains, ships, and other ground targets, claiming a total of 2,000 targets destroyed - including 800 vehicles, 519 tanks, 150 artillery guns, a destroyer, two cruisers, a battleship...
How mayn aircrafts do you get for a destroyer, cruiser or a battleship?

Catch22 · Apr 19, 2008

I would say at least 25 haha.

P1234567890 · Apr 19, 2008

Lucky13 said:
Hartmann shot down his first Soviet victim on 5 November 1942, an Il-2 from 7 GShAP (7th Guards Ground Attack Aviation Regiment)..... Marseille, shot down his last 156-158 on the 26th of September 1942...
One just getting started and one KIA. I wonder what kinda score Marseille would have racked up if he'd been posted on the eastern front later....

This is a really interesting question. If Marseille had survived to fight on the Eastern Front, and if he'd been active for the whole war, I'm guessing he would have ended up with 500+ kills in total.

Who knows, maybe it would have been even more than that. Hartmann knew enough to cut and run when the odds were too heavily against him. Marseille's idea of a good time was to do the exact opposite. He was outrageously aggressive, and that would have served him well on the Eastern front. There would have been lots of targets consisting of poorly-trained pilots in inferior aircraft. He might even have ended up with 1000+ kills. Who knows.

Njaco · Apr 19, 2008

Hartmann had fantastic number of kills.

Marseille was an expert shot especially deflection.

But are those the only criteria for a 'Best" pilot? Maybe if Marseille had survived to the end of the war? Maybe if Hartmann flew Defense of Reich? or maybe switched to the Fw 190 and then to the Me 262? How would Hartmann do against a Fortress? How about Marseille against a P-51? Would Marseille end up in a Me 163?

For a 'Best' pilot I'm taking into account number of kills, length of service, type of aircraft flown, who did he fly against, what theatre.

Heinz Bar either excelled or at the very least was just better than average in all those categories. Thats why I choose him.

Ramirezzz · Apr 19, 2008

P1234567890 said:
This is a really interesting question. If Marseille had survived to fight on the Eastern Front, and if he'd been active for the whole war, I'm guessing he would have ended up with 500+ kills in total.

Who knows, maybe it would have been even more than that. Hartmann knew enough to cut and run when the odds were too heavily against him.
Marseille's idea of a good time was to do the exact opposite. He was outrageously aggressive, and that would have served him well on the Eastern front.

Well, who survived the war and who - not?

There would have been lots of targets consisting of poorly-trained pilots in inferior aircraft. He might even have ended up with 1000+ kills. Who knows.

why not 10000? I believe with his style of flying he wouldn't last much longer on the eastern front as well. The poorly-trained pilots were not that poor at all since late 1943 and aircraft quality was rather equal, so with his bad*ss flying he wouldn't have much greater chances to survive and to achieve victories like in Africa.
BTW, there were other pilots on the Eastern Front who had as good shooting skills as Marseille. Rudorffer is just to mention.

Catch22 · Apr 19, 2008

You can't really blame Marseille's death on lack of pilot skill, just bad luck.

pbfoot · Apr 19, 2008

If economic shooting is a skill at the top of the heap would be Beurling several times he said a that he hit the aircraft with so many rounds in through the cockpit and when his ammo and the wreck were examined it was confirmed. 12 rounds to drop a 109 and 3 cannon rounds in a Macchi with the same result . But aside from shooting eyesight would be the best weapon as the first to see his opponent has the advantage.

Soundbreaker Welch? · Apr 19, 2008

He might even have ended up with 1000+ kills. Who knows.

I don't know. If Marseille was so reckless he might have been killed before reaching it.

Like you said, Hartmann only did so well because he was cautious as well as being agressive.

A Thank You to the person who voted for Adolf Galland! But he still needs more votes to survive to the next poll!

If not sure who to vote for, then........

Vote for George Preddy, the top P-51 Mustang Ace of WWII!

P1234567890 · Apr 19, 2008

Ramirezzz said:
Well, who survived the war and who - not?

Marseille survived every single encounter with the enemy. In fact, his apparent suicide attacks against multiple enemy fighters usually ended up with all of them shot down and him without a scratch.

He died in a silly accident, and not in combat.

Ramirezzz said:
why not 10000? I believe with his style of flying he wouldn't last much longer on the eastern front as well. The poorly-trained pilots were not that poor at all since late 1943 and aircraft quality was rather equal, so with his bad*ss flying he wouldn't have much greater chances to survive and to achieve victories like in Africa.

You're just saying this because you're biased, and it sounds a whole lot like you think that Marseille was killed in combat. There's no way you can make the argument that Russian pilots and fighters were as good as Western pilots and fighters. If Marseille could chew up Western pilots and aces, then he would certainly have been able to do the same on the Eastern Front.

And when you say that in late 1943 the aircraft quality was rather equal, exactly which planes are you comparing? Are you saying that the state-of-the-art Soviet planes of 1943 were as good as the best German planes of the same time?!?

Ramirezzz said:
BTW, there were other pilots on the Eastern Front who had as good shooting skills as Marseille. Rudorffer is just to mention.

Look, Marseille invented and mastered absolutely deadly tactics which nobody else could even pull off. There's a reason why Galland said that he was the best fighter pilot of the war. I trust Galland's judgment on the matter. I'd like to know what Hartmann thought of Marseille's skills.

P1234567890 · Apr 19, 2008

pbfoot said:
If economic shooting is a skill at the top of the heap would be Beurling several times he said a that he hit the aircraft with so many rounds in through the cockpit and when his ammo and the wreck were examined it was confirmed. 12 rounds to drop a 109 and 3 cannon rounds in a Macchi with the same result . But aside from shooting eyesight would be the best weapon as the first to see his opponent has the advantage.

Hey, I want old Buzz to win the greatest ace award as much as any Canadian, but we've got to be honest here. He was a great pilot, but we can't compare him with the top Germans.

pbfoot · Apr 19, 2008

P1234567890 said:
Hey, I want old Buzz to win the greatest ace award as much as any Canadian, but we've got to be honest here. He was a great pilot, but we can't compare him with the top Germans.

look who I voted for and he can be compared to great pilots but in my mind Marseille was better. I'll vote for him as top allied pilot definately the top shot

P1234567890 · Apr 19, 2008

Soundbreaker Welch? said:
I don't know. If Marseille was so reckless he might have been killed before reaching it.

If he'd survived North Africa, then he might have been killed later on by a mechanical malfunction in Russia. Who knows.

Besides, I'm not sure that reckless is the right word. If he could fly into a wing of 6 Western planes and shoot them all down in a few minutes, then is that a case of recklessness, or is it a case of audacious skill and courage?

Here's a little story about Marseille: (From Hans Joachim Marseille)

His most "classic" combat, by some analysts, was on June 6, 1942 at noon. While in a bomber escort mission, he saw a formation of 16 P-40 Tomahawk fighter and ground attack aircraft, but initially remained with his formation, escorting the German bombers. After ten minutes, he left his formation with the escorted bombers and flew alone to attack the 16 Tomahawks, but his faithful wingman followed him. Marseille climbed above a tight formation of four, then dived at them. From a range of just 200ft he selected his first victim and turned at him. From a very short range of just 150ft he fired and shot it down. He then pulled up, turned, and dived at his 2nd victim, shooting it down from a range of 150ft. The others began to dive, but Marseille dived at them, turned at his 3rd victim and shot it down at altitude of about 3500ft (1km). He passed thru the smoke from his 3rd victim and leveled at low altitude, and then climbed again. He then dived again, at his 4th victim. He fired from just 100ft, but his guns didn't fire, so he fired his machine guns from very short range and passed thru the debris from his 4th victim. At the moment he hit his 4th victim, his 3rd victim hit the ground after falling 3500ft, approximately 15 seconds between victories, an indication of Marseille's speed. The remaining Tomahawks were now all at very low altitude. He leveled at them and quickly closed distance. He found himself beside one of the Tomahawks, he turned at him and fired, hitting his 5th victim in the engine and the cockpit. He climbed again, watched the remaining Tomahawks, selected a target, dived, levelled, and fired, and passed just above his 6th victim. He then climbed to his wingman which observed the battle from 7500ft above, and then, short of fuel and ammunition, flew back to base.

In 11 minutes of combat, fighting practically alone against a large enemy formation, he shot down six victims, five of them in the first six minutes. He was the only attacker in the battle, and not a single round was fired at him. The surviving Tomahawk pilots said in their debriefing that they were attacked "by a numerically superior German formation which made one formation attack at them, shot down six of their friends, and disengaged". In a post-war analysis of this dogfight these pilots testified the same.

P1234567890 · Apr 19, 2008

pbfoot said:
look who I voted for and he can be compared to great pilots but in my mind Marseille was better. I'll vote for him as top allied pilot definately the top shot

I totally agree that he was one of the top allied pilots of the war, and was probably the best marksman.

Ironically, he died in a stupid accident, just like Marseille.

Buzz seems to have been popular with the ladies:

On a separate note, when we say 'allied pilot', are we including Soviet pilots as well?

Best WWII fighter pilot....?

Best Pilot Pt. 1

Erich "Bubi" Hartmann, Germany

Gerhard Barkhorn, Germany

Günther Rall, Germany

Walter Nowotny, Germany

Heinz Bär, Germany

Hermann Graf, Germany

Hans-Joachim Marseille, Germany

Werner Mölders, Germany

Adolf Galland, Germany

Ilmari Juutilainen, Finland

Hiroyoshi Nishizawa, Japan

Tetsuzo Iwamoto, Japan

Hans Wind, Finland

Saburo Sakai, Japan

Ivan Kozhedub, Soviet Union

Aleksandr Ivanovich Pokryshkin, Soviet Union

Grigoriy Rechkalov, Soviet Union

Nikolay Gulayev, Soviet Union

Kirill Yevstigneyev, Soviet Union

Marmaduke 'Pat' Pattle, South Africa

Dmitriy Glinka, Soviet Union

Mato Dukovac, Croatia

Alexandru Şerbănescu, Romania

Oiva Tuominen, Finland

Constantine Cantacuzino, Romania

Richard I. Bong, USA

Thomas B. McGuire, USA

James Edgar "Johnnie" Johnson, UK

Sergey Luganski, Soviet Union

David McCampbell, USA

Pierre Clostermann, France

George F. Beurling, Canada

Brendan Eamon Fergus "Paddy" Finucane, UK

Ján Režňák, Czechoslovakia

Adolph 'Sailor' Malan, South Africa

Dezso Szengyorgyi, Hungary

Robert Roland Stanford Tuck, UK

Bob Braham, UK

"Ginger" Lacey, UK

Francis "Gabby" Gabreski, USA

Gregory "Pappy" Boyington, USA

Clive Caldwell, Australia

Colin Falkland Gray, New Zealand

Neville Duke, UK

Robert S. Johnson, USA

Charles H. MacDonald, USA

Joseph J. Foss, USA

Adriano Visconti, Italy

George E. Preddy, Jr., USA

Douglas Bader, UK

Lloyd Chadburn, Canada

Bob "Butcher" Hansen, USA

Arthur Bishop, Canada

Erich Rudorffer, Germany

Heinz-Wolfgang Schnaufner, Germany

Witold Urbanowicz, Poland

Brigadier General

Airman

Moderator

Major

Private Chemtrail Disperser

Forum Mascot

Major

Forum Mascot

Major

Airman

The Pop-Tart Whisperer

Senior Airman

Major

1st Lieutenant

Tech Sergeant

Airman

Airman

1st Lieutenant

Airman

Airman

Users who are viewing this thread

Similar threads