Bf 109E-4 7./JG 53 "Weiss 5"

Discussion in 'Aviation' started by Njaco, Apr 23, 2013.

  1. Njaco

    Njaco The Pop-Tart Whisperer
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    I like checking out pics and while I troll the internet or my books, some planes invariably keep showing up. This is one:

    Bf 109E-4 of Uffz. Hans-Georg Schulte of 7./JG 53 who was shot down on 6 September 1940. Aircraft constructed by Erla, Werke Nr. 1506. Fitted with DB 601A/1 engine, Mercedes Benz work nr.62611.

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  2. Njaco

    Njaco The Pop-Tart Whisperer
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    A line-up of 7./JG 53 aircraft, believed to have been photographed on the III. Gruppe Feldflugplatz at Poulmic-Brest between late July and mid-August 1940.The camouflage is the 02/70/71 scheme mentioned earlier and the Hakenkreuz on the fin of ' White 12' has been painted out and then, unusually, re-applied to the rudder. The pilots are, from left to right, Fw. Hermann Neuhoff, Uffz. Hans-Georg Schulte, Lt. Franz Gotz, Oblt. Heinz AltendoRG and unknown. 'White 5' in the line-up is the E-4 which Uffz. Schulte crash-landed near Manston aerodrome on the evening of 6 September.

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  3. Njaco

    Njaco The Pop-Tart Whisperer
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    Some great in-flight pics....I believe the first 2 pics are the E-3 that Schulte flew before gaining the E-4.

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  4. Njaco

    Njaco The Pop-Tart Whisperer
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    6 September 1940, and the B109E-4 'White 5' of 7./JG 53's Uffz. Hans-Georg Schulte lies abandoned on Vincents Farm to the north of RAF Manston. Flying with four other Bf-109s on a late afternoon freie ]agd over Dover, Schulte was attacked by fighters and his aircraft damaged. Although Schulte attempted to land on Manston airfield he overshot and his machine came to rest in a field. Note the old style Balkenkreuz.

    Excerpted from interrogation report:
    6/9/40 Bf 109 White 5+, 7./JG 53, Unteroffizier Hans-Georg Schulte. Started at 17.30 hrs on a freelance patrol. This aircraft was flying with four others from the 7. Staffel at a height of 16,500 ft when it was shot down by fighters at 18.50 hrs. The pilot tried to land on Manston aerodrome.

    Crashed Enemy Aircraft Report (verbatim):
    Me 109. Crashed near Vincents Farm, Manston on 6/9 at 18.30hrs. Markings 5+I in white. White cowling, spinner and rudder. Camouflage mottled light and dark green and grey. Thick red band around cowling painted out. Aircraft constructed by Erla, work nr.1506 dated 1940. Fitted with DB 601/A engine. Mercedes Benz work nr.62611. Cause of crash uncertain. One wing buckled, otherwise condition of aircraft fair. Standard armament and bulkhead together with pilot’s head shield standard.

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  5. Njaco

    Njaco The Pop-Tart Whisperer
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    #5 Njaco, Apr 23, 2013
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2014
    Bf 109E 4 "White 5" of 7./JG 53 shot down over Margate, Kent on 6th September 1940. The pilot was Unteroffizier Hans Georg Schulte and the aircraft crash landed near Manston airfield. The swastika has been painted out. That was because the Wing Commander, Hans-Jürgen Erdmann von Cramon-Taubadel married a girl who, in Goering's opinion, was not suitable (Jewish). He therefore ordered the unit to remove their "Ace of Spades" mascot from the cowlings of their Messerschmitts and paint a red band around the noses of their aircraft as a mark of shame. When Cramon-Taubadel was replaced, the “Ace of Spades” mascot was reinstated, but, in response to this, the unit overpainted the swastikas of their aircraft in protest.

    The photo is taken in Barker's Pool, Sheffield. It was displayed in aid of the Sheffield Newspapers War Fund (some kind of fundraising effort where you could buy a sticker and put it on the aircraft).

    Matchbox 1/32 Bf109e - Work in Progress - Aircraft - Britmodeller.com
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  6. nuuumannn

    nuuumannn Well-Known Member

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    Terrific Chris! Keep it up. I'd like to see more of this sort of research on this forum. Note also that by the time it had been shot down from the earlier images the position of the swastika had moved from half on the rudder and fin to entirely on the fin. Great information and images.
     
  7. A4K

    A4K Well-Known Member

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    With Grant -great photos and info Chris!

    A little surprised the nose and rudder are depicted as white - I would have thought Yellow for the BoB campaign. you've got me interested in this bird too for other reasons - NZ received a Bf 109E-4 Weiss 5 (IIRC) as an instructional airframe - need to check info to see if this is the same aircraft!
     
  8. Njaco

    Njaco The Pop-Tart Whisperer
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    That was mostly due because they found that when the rudder gets damaged they would also need the Gruppe painter to help with repairs! Keeping it on the fin was one less problem they had to deal with.

    Very well could be!
     
  9. nuuumannn

    nuuumannn Well-Known Member

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    Nah, different one. The one that went to NZ was Brown 5 and was shot down in November 1940. Can't remember the unit, but the pilot's name was Wilhelm Erdniss. It was stored in the same hangar I used to work in in Nelson. I have a good picture of it somewhere; I'll dig it out.
     
  10. Airframes

    Airframes Benevolens Magister

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    Evan, both yellow and white washable distemper ID colours were used during the BoB. White was use by JG53.
    The swastika position over fin and rudder was a pre-war marking, moved to the fin only, on all aircraft, around about May/June 1940.
    Note the 'PikAs' emblem on the nose, later removed under orders from Goering, reputedly as a 'punishment' for the COs family's jewish connections. Supposedly, this was not re-instated until the appointment of the next commander, in November 1940, when, as a protest, (so it's told) the swastika was also removed from the fins of Stab aircraft. However, there are photos of the Geschwader's aircraft, showing the 'Pik As' badge back in place as early as late August 1940.
     
  11. bobbysocks

    bobbysocks Well-Known Member

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    there is something about the E models i love.
     
  12. DFM+BB

    DFM+BB Member

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    Interesting Airframes, I've always tought that the red line on the previous yellow+red line engine cover (see first profile and on the captured images ) was the "punishment".
    Can you tell me more please ?

    Anyway super good work NJACO, you even make me think about my 1/72 Bf109E waiting for an interesting paint scheme ! thanks ! :)
     
  13. Airframes

    Airframes Benevolens Magister

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    Yes, the red line, or ring, was supposedly the punishment, and was applied before the introduction of the washable distemper ID paint, with the Geschwader supposedly then being known as the 'Red Ring Geschwader'.
    White was used as the ID colour by JG53 (and some other JGs) at first, and later changed, as with other units, to yellow, as it was more visible in certain lighting conditions.
    The common belief is that, soon after Gunther von Maltzahn took over as Kommodore, in November, the 'Pik As' badge reappeared, but there are photographs in existence, purportedly taken in August 1940, showing the badge in place on the engine cowling. One of these also shows a particular pilot who was lost in September 1940, which would suggest the photo could not have been taken after this time. There are. of course, photos and written records, showing that the red ring was also in place on other aircraft of the Geschwader at this time.
    However, it's possible that the source of these photos, a former aircrew member of JG53, might have confused the date of the photograph, although unlikely, considering the in-depth detail recorded by this pilot.
    The over-painted swastikas were on aircraft of III Gruppe (although I think I have also seen similar on Geschwader Stab A/C, but these might have been Stab, III/JG53 - would need to check). Apparently, this was done under the orders of Hauptmann Wilcke, the Gruppenkommandeur at that time, as is generally thought to be as a political gesture.
     
  14. nuuumannn

    nuuumannn Well-Known Member

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    #14 nuuumannn, Apr 24, 2013
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2013
    Ah, here it is. Bf 109E-4 Wk Nr 1653 of 3/JG 51 was shot down on 27 November 1940 whilst on a fighter sweep over Southern England and forced landed near Horton Park, Kent. Arriving in New Zealand in 1941, it was put on display outside the Bank of New Zealand in Wellington and went to the RNZAF Technical Training School at Rongotai. When the TTS moved to Nelson, the Messerschmitt went too and it is thought that it received this slightly dubious colour scheme at that time. It is seen here suspended from the rafters of the TTS hangar at Nelson. (Courtesy of the RNZAF Museum)

    [​IMG]

    The same hangar as it appears now, as heavy maintenance base for Air New Zealand subsidiary Air Nelson. (Courtesy of me) The Bf 109 was scrapped after the war by the RNZAF, although small items survive in the RNZAF Museum.

    [​IMG]

    Here's a link with a little more information and some images of the Bf 109 Brown 5.

    Asisbiz Messerschmitt Bf 109E 3./JG51 (Y5+) Fw. Wilhelm Erdniss W.Nr 1653 crash-landed UK Nov 27 1940
     
  15. Airframes

    Airframes Benevolens Magister

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    Great stuff Grant.
    Although there is no definite proof, it is thought that JG53 were used to try out various 'experimental' camouflage schemes during the later half of 1940. Whether or not it was 'official', or just the interpretation, by the relevant staff of the JG, of camouflage patterns, they certainly had many and varied schemes, including the (probably first) use of locally-mixed greys, which eventually became what we now know as RLM 74/75/76.
    The patterns varied from overall 'washes' of one colour on the fuselage sides and top decking, over a base colour, through variations of mottle, which included large patches of irregular shape, to 'wave' patterns not unlike RAF pattern camouflage, which included the tops of the main wings.
    Most contemporary published photos don't show this, as the wings can only be partly seen normally. However, in Chris Goss's book covering the actions of the JG against 609 Sqn during the latter part of the BoB, there are a number of photos, from former JG air and ground crew, where these patterns can be seen, although, of course, no colour information is given.
    If some of these schemes were seen on a model, the average viewer would possibly think the model builder had used a fictitious colour scheme!
     
  16. nuuumannn

    nuuumannn Well-Known Member

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    Interesting Terry, I'm sure the modellers would have fun explaining that to their critics. The one that went to NZ had that scheme painted on in NZ; take a look at images of it in the link to the page I provided. It'd be interesting to know what colour the Kiwis painted the aircraft. Air Force personnel did the same to a Mitsubishi Zero that survives in Auckland; it was painted in a spurious green and blue scheme and remained like that for years until repainted not long ago; I have pics of it somewhere.
     
  17. stona

    stona Well-Known Member

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    My money would be on Dark Green and Ocean Grey or Medium Sea Grey. That is completely without any evidence whatsoever, so I wouldn't be surprised to lose my money :)

    Cheers

    Steve
     
  18. Wayne Little

    Wayne Little Well-Known Member

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    The other White 5 depicted with the horizontal white bar is from 4/JG53 and flown by Uffz.Stefan Litjens
     
  19. Njaco

    Njaco The Pop-Tart Whisperer
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    Thanks Wayne. I wasn't sure but a few places had those pics pegged as Schulte. Good to get it straightened out!
     
  20. dr_gn

    dr_gn New Member

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    I just stumbled across this thread on "White 5", and noticed that much of the text of my research has been copied and pasted from the original thread here:

    Matchbox 1/32 Bf109e - Work in Progress - Aircraft - Britmodeller.com

    The problem with "cut and paste" research is that it is very easy to copy other peoples (i.e. my) errors and assumptions, and without the context of the full thread, it may give a slightly misleading account. Anyhow, if anyone is interested in a little anecdote to the "White 5" story, if you read to post #208 on the above thread, you will find an interesting message to me from the daughter of Hans-Georg Schulte, who was researching online her father's time in the Luftwaffe a couple of years ago and came across my model and research. She contacted me and was able to shed a bit of light on her father's subsequent flying career after the war.

    Cheers,
     
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