Bf109 with Pipe.

beaupower32 · Dec 25, 2009

I found this on another site.A strange Bf 109E... [Archive] - Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum

From the HyperScale Plane Talking -forum thread (direct link given earlier by Modeldad).

"William
German Navy used this 109-T for
Mon Jan 24, 2005 17:45
24.67.253.203

Shore battery tests..It is a Naval Smoke Generator, Field fixed to the Airframe."

When asked about source the answer was:

When asked about source the answer was:

"William
Showed this pic to a retired Luftwaffe pilot
Mon Jan 24, 2005 21:48
24.67.253.203

four years ago.(he,s well into his 80,s)..thats what he said it was..the idea was that in case of invasion they wanted to "Obscure" the coastal batteries with smoke thus protecting them from Allied naval guns..If you look at it it will CLICK..could,t have been used at high altitude for anything(its what I told him everybody thought it was)he said way too much drag..its what caused the crash at low landing speed...and for icing trials..well you,d have to get way up there and carry hundeds of gallons of water,no.
The long pipe was just to keep the pilots view clear as he made his low altitude run in front emplacements while smoke poured ot behind him."

Now,

How should we value the statement/message above? Is it genuine?

I think the answer William gives is the most plausible. Ammunition bin storage area within the nose of Bf 109E would provide enough room for smoke agent. For example Piper Pawnee has it's spray tank like that - forward of cockpit. Bf 109 would have provided a fast way to lay smoke screen if emergency arised.

It might interest people that FinnAF did actually fly Bf 109 with smoke generator under belly. This happened post war. I don't know many such flights total was done but one flight was during a mock attack against "enemy" air field during war games. The smoke screen was drawn between AAA guns and the target they protected. That way the Bf 109 JaBos could make their attack more easily. At least that is how I remember it from my reading.

I don't know what the Finnish smoke generator it was - it was just called "can" or somesuch. Captured soviet ones were used with (also captured) SB bombers during the war. It seems the long pipe underneath was not needed, even for the Bf 109.

I wonder if the idea of using Bf 109 as smoke generator plane came from Germany or if it was just result of not much else being available. Planes with interior bomb bay were/are prohibited for FinnAF according the peace agreement of 1948.

If the device does not show a clear operational benefit to the Bf 109, was it flight testing something for another aircraft design. It was quite common at the time for bits of a proposed aircraft to be attached to other for aerodynamic trials. Someone I hope will recognise the device as a strut of a large aircraft, a proposed 'Mistel' or even a leading edge of a wing / strut etc.

GrauGeist · Dec 25, 2009

That might be a good idea as to what the aperatus was, but it's definately not a T or T-2...

Soren · Dec 25, 2009

I really dont believe it was for laying smoke, I mean why the moveable joint? You could accomplish what this william guy claims by simply having a pipe run along the bottom of the a/c, spewing smoke out the back. Also smoke dispensers back then were quite simply just cylindrical cans about the size of a really large cookie jar.

Could it be the testing of a part for another a/c, maybe. Or a refueling pipe, maybe.

BikerBabe · Dec 25, 2009

Micdrow said:
This is actually an age old question that has popped up on almost any website that deals with the luftwaffe and as far as I know there has been no answer to this question.

Has anyone ever asked the german airforce???

Airframes · Dec 27, 2009

Although I don't think it is a smoke generator, more likely some equipment test-rig, it could be. Rather than just small cans, the Allies used RAF Bostons on D-Day to lay smoke screens across the sea in front of the beaches. The bomb bays were fitted with the rather large chemical tanks and generator, basically a heating element, and the smoke was 'dispensed' from a series of vertical pipes, in pairs, below the fuselage. The reason for the pipes being vertical was to allow the smoke to drop in a cloud, clear of the slipstream, to prevent it streaming behind in a 'thinner' trail, when it would have dissipated more quickly, thus negating any value.

BikerBabe · Dec 27, 2009

Mail sent to the german airforce.

Milosh · Dec 27, 2009

Soren said:
I really dont believe it was for laying smoke, I mean why the moveable joint? You could accomplish what this william guy claims by simply having a pipe run along the bottom of the a/c, spewing smoke out the back. Also smoke dispensers back then were quite simply just cylindrical cans about the size of a really large cookie jar.

Could it be the testing of a part for another a/c, maybe. Or a refueling pipe, maybe.

Where is the movable joint? Certainly not at the front of the tube. Looking very carefully at that point one can see a sprocket with a chain that goes up the vertical fairing.

Njaco · Dec 27, 2009

I'm not sure its movable either. That connection at the rear of the fuselage looks bolted on - which to me, is rather strange looking for a hanger.

piet · Dec 27, 2009

Maby i'am seeing thingsdont like the look of that panelline no lines are to be seen on the rear section exept this one
So does this section look retouched in some way?

Piet

stona · Dec 27, 2009

Whatever that is in the highlighted area it's not a normal panel line. As you say they are normally barely visible on the real thing (unlike the current fashion on models). I have no idea what that contraption is but of all the suggestions I'm backing the smoke generator,though why it would have to "hinge" down like that I have no idea.
Someone somewhere must know what it is!
Steve

pbfoot · Dec 27, 2009

I'm no expert but can't believe they'd use the 109 for laying smoke screens , it barely carried enough fuel with its limited space

vikingBerserker · Dec 27, 2009

I wonder if the panel line is some kind of strap or wire.

The front does look like a hinge to me. If on pic 1 below you rotate the red lines, it looks like a perfect match.

Not sure if on the front of it it's a sprocket and chain (blue line). When I looked at it the first time I thought it looked like the Air Log on the front of the V-1 (2nd pic). If it is a sprocket and chain, then I think it definitely could not be a hinge.

GrauGeist · Dec 27, 2009

I went back and looked at the original images again...especially the wreckage photos.

With the discussion of the tail, I looked a bit more closely, and was surprised at what I saw. I blew up image #4 and noticed something very interesting.

That white "brace" is indeed a type of escutcheon and I still suspect to help locate the "pipe" as it retracts in the up position. You can see it clearly intact and still attached to the fuselage, facing upwards.

Also note that the entire tail assembly and fuselage from the cockpit back is twisted 180°, showing that escutcheon and the distinct joint between the tail and aft part of the fuselage. The "pipe" is also nowhere to be seen in the wreckage.

Soren · Dec 27, 2009

Milosh said:
Where is the movable joint? Certainly not at the front of the tube. Looking very carefully at that point one can see a sprocket with a chain that goes up the vertical fairing.

I see a joint. The opening also strongely suggesting a making of space for the pipe being pulled down in flight. I suspect a hydraulic system might have been used to pull the pipe down into position, seeing a rod connected to a hinge at the front of the pipe running from fuselage down. The rear attachment whích can be seen looks like a holster for the pipe, from which a wire probably runs to be used for hoisting the pipe up again.

beaupower32 · Dec 27, 2009

I found a few things on some other forums, and i will post here to get the brain thinking some more.

Lucas Freeman

Yes, it does very well seem to be attached between the gear. But comparing the forced perspective of the enlarged photo and the actual placement of the struts on the 109, it still places the attached piece between the gear but back towards the firewall of the engine.

What I do not understand is what the enlarged photo depicts as a non-aerodynamic addition to the aircraft. The front piece is wide open, like it needs the dynamic push of air to move whatever is inside the tube out. This could point to something smoke related, which could initially be started by the pilot reaching down, pulling some lever to activate a smoke pot (stored outside the cockpit for safety), and the smoke being pushed down the tube by the flow of air. (?) The end of the tube is near the vertical stabilizer and very close to the rudder, but movement of the rudder wouldn't truly affect a stream of smoke.

I hadn't even visited the web site when I first made my comments and it seems the author also is inlcined towards a drain of sorts. I am now tending to like the idea of smoke alot more. It's a nice theory... I wonder if we'll ever truly find out.

Gordon Alexander Rain

O.K......my Farthing's worth.

I did a very large home remodel for an old german gentlemen about a year ago. As I was traipsing through the house I noticed a wall of pictures and badges and such. Looking a little closer I realized that they were all of WWII. He had many things mounted up there, amoung them a picture of the aircraft he used to fly for the Luftwaffe. It was, I believe he told me, a BF-109? Anyway, the reason for this long-winded answer is, that he had a picture of his aircraft (from a different angle) and it had a extremely similar device underneath it. Being the inquisitive WWII buff that I was, I asked him what it was. He told me that, at the end of the War, Germany was trying to burn all kinds of alternate fuels to put more aircraft in the air. The aircraft he was standing beside in the picture burned, of all things, coal oil!
Might be the same type of aircraft......

Just a thought.

Tread.

Mike Still

This makes some sense as a test craft. The FW 190F that the Smithsonian restored had a few gallons of coal-based gasoline in its tanks when the NASM team started tearing it down.

Note also that the photo shows the rig attached right over where the normal droptank rack would be attached anyway. The fully-enclosed attachment between the fairing and the pipe is a few inches behind the small propeller, and there is a lack of a clear ram intake into the rig. If you were going to make smoke, would it make sense to drain from the aircraft's internal fuel or oil?

Given the location of the pipe along the fuselage, it would be pretty improbable that this is some kind of reactive thrust system, especially because of the rudder proximity.

Now, if it did burn "coal oil" why did it need the long tube. Couldnt they just replace it with a normal drop tank, or would they need a entire different system to test it in case it didnt work.

GrauGeist · Dec 27, 2009

Also notice that the "pipe" (or boom) doesn't seem to be round at the end tucked under the tail...it has more of an "L" shape and what appears to be rivets or bolts on the very end.

You can also see a slight gap around that "escutcheon" in this photo enlargement

vikingBerserker · Dec 27, 2009

Nice catch Dave, I did not notice that at all.

beaupower32 · Dec 28, 2009

Correct me if im wrong, but doesnt the entire tail of the 109 move when it is being trimmed? If so, wouldnt bolting that to the tail eliminate the ability to trim the aircraft for level flight, unless the "pipe" has enough play to allow some sort of movement for the tail.

Soren · Dec 28, 2009

The entire horizontal stabilizer was only trimmable on the F series onwards.

stona · Dec 28, 2009

Soren said:
The entire horizontal stabilizer was only trimmable on the F series onwards.

Yep,and rudder trim even later.

Bf109 with Pipe.

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