bf110 exchange ratio

[Milosh]

Well how many enemy aircraft did they claim again..? Absolutely NONE, riiiiiight...

Thanks for confirming that about 1/3 of FC did not participate in the air battles over south east England.

That gives the Germans about a 5:1 numerical advantage (German fighters + bombers vs RAF fighters) over south east England.

 

[Kurfürst]

Interesting thought. Care to extend and verify it?

 

[Juha]

On exchange rate fighter vs fighter, I counted from Hooton's Eagle in Flames, combat losses 1 July-6 Oct 40 109s and 110s (regrettably incl. Jabos) 675 vs 790 FC S.E. fighters. 35 BC bombers failed to return from daytime operations over Western Europe (excl. Germany) during BoB. Of CC losses, max 53 was shot down by fighters, realistic number much lower, because many simply went missing, some in areas with only slight possibility of meeting a 110. The figure incl. those shot down 109s based in Norway, which are not usually incl LW's BoB strength. So IMHO no chance that 109 and 110 fighter exchange rate vs S.E. FC fighters was much better than 1:1.2 even if we suppose that bombers shot down only appr. 60 fighters. IMHO realistically something like 1:1.15 against FC S.E. fighters and max 1:1.25 RAF as whole, there were also a few TC a/c lost to LW fighters, all of which I can recall now to 110s.

ADDITION:From Hastings' Bomber Command one sees that 52 BC bombers failed to return from daytime operations, incl those against Germany, between 1 Jul and 31 Oct 40. That doesn't change my analyze because the hyphotesis, that bombers shot down only 60 is most probably badly too low. For ex on 15 Sept Price in his BoB Day writes that out of 28 British fighters shot down on that day 13 were shot down by LW fighters, 6 by LW bombers and 9 were lost to unknown reasons. Also on 29 Sept over the Irish Sea 9 He 111s shot down 3 Hurricanes out of the first 6 to attack. That is the best result of German air-gunners I can recall but air-gunners did often good job.

Juha

 

[Juha]

Hello Kurfürst
Quote:"and at no point theyl couldn't effectively stop German air operations. "

How about forcing LW to stop massive daylight raids against London.

Juha

 

[Milosh]

Interesting thought. Care to extend and verify it?

You can start here for German numbers, Luftwaffe Campaign Orders of Battle

Kampfgruppen - 1482
Stukagruppen - 365
Schlachtgruppe - 39
Jagdgruppen - 976
Zerstrergruppen - 244

total 3106 in Luft 2, 3 and 5. Subtract ~250 for Luft 5, so around 2850 bombers and fighters.

RAF Aug 13 1940
# Spitfire - 226
# Hurricane - 353

total 579

Since you agree that 1/3 of FC se fighters did not participate in the air battles over south east England, that gives 382 opposing the 2850 LW bombers and fighters. 5:1 was being generous as the ratio is 7:1.

On Sept 7 1940 there was
# Spitfire - 223
# Hurricane - 398

total - 621

which leaves 410 facing the bombers and fighters of Luft 2 and 3. I'll let you do the math for this date.

 

[delcyros]

How many Luftwaffe bf-109 -110 were shot down by Flak operating in hostile airpsaces over England? How many were lost in landing/taxiing/starting accidents? Finally, how many were lost to non operational issues (returned to factories for overhaul/repair, send to other units, expired service lifetime and so on)?
And what are the corresponding figures for RAF units, including non RAF squads involved. By the way, there were actions involving long range bf-110 in the North Sea up to Scapa Flow and beyond in long range sea patrol. I could imagine that CC encountered some either long range -110 or long range float planes (usually Do-18/-24, but only a very limited number in action).

 

[delcyros]

You can start here for German numbers, Luftwaffe Campaign Orders of Battle

Kampfgruppen - 1482
Stukagruppen - 365
Schlachtgruppe - 39
Jagdgruppen - 976
Zerstrergruppen - 244

total 3106 in Luft 2, 3 and 5. Subtract ~250 for Luft 5, so around 2850 bombers and fighters.

RAF Aug 13 1940
# Spitfire - 226
# Hurricane - 353

total 579

Since you agree that 1/3 of FC se fighters did not participate in the air battles over south east England, that gives 382 opposing the 2850 LW bombers and fighters. 5:1 was being generous as the ratio is 7:1.

On Sept 7 1940 there was
# Spitfire - 223
# Hurricane - 398

total - 621

which leaves 410 facing the bombers and fighters of Luft 2 and 3. I'll let you do the math for this date.

That´s a very selective information. The Schlachtgruppen were not in action over England but they are counted as well. The RAF strength as of aug. 1940 certainly included a number of bombers therfore as well? Blenheim fighters maybe? -Or Defiant fighters? Gladiator fighters? FAA units anyone? hmmmm...
Finally, how many of the Luftwaffe strength was servicable at any given day?

 

[davebender]

Only at night. During the daytime the RAF only had to defend territory that was within the operational radius of a Me-109E. That's a relatively small area.

 

[Nikademus]

Luftwaffe total strength and servicability, Battle of Britian (Luftflt 2,3,5) OOB, 8/10/40 (number in ( ) denotes servicable)

Fighters (1E) :813(702)
Fighters (2E) :319(261)
Bombers (2E) :1360(998 )
Dive Bombers :406(316)
LR Recon :113(78 )

(source: Hough, Richards "Battle of Britian")

On the eve of the battle (7/20/40) they estimate 700 Hurricanes and Spitfires vs. 1,089 109's and 110's. German servicability was roughly estimated at '3/4' aka around 75%. Fighter Command, the principle force that would defend against the onslaught had "high servicability" (?? i'd wager high means 80-90%)

 

[Juha]

Hello Delcyros
British AA . It is usually estimated that British AA shot down 100 planes, most of them bombers.
According to Hooton, LW lost 78 109s and 110s from front-line units in accidents between 1 Jul and 6 Oct 40, FC lost 74 fighters in accidents during same timeframe, those were of course not incl. Hooton's combat loss figure in my previous message. On CC losses I included those lost S of Ireland but not those N of Ireland, difficult to image 110 crews taking one way trip there in hope that they might pump up a British plane before running out fuel. Of course included were those CC losses which went missing over North Sea or over Norwegian Sea, over Channel etc.

I have not figures at hand on those 109s and 110s lost in second-line formations or before they were delivered to units, I have some NJG losses, but of course I didn't incl. them to my earlier numbers.

On RAF figures the losses of RCAF, PAF etc sqns serving under FC are of course incl. According to BoB Then and Now Mk V FC lost 1023 a/c during the BoB incl Blenheims for all reasons incl accidents etc also a few friendly fire cases, victims usually Blenheims.

CC suffered also losses to Flak during its attacks against ports.

Juha

 

[Juha]

Dave
again you are wrong. FC had to be ready to defend whole of GB, there were even few attacks against Northern Ireland. 15 Aug showed that that was a right thing to do. Also there were attacks on coastal convoys along GB eastern coast, so the convoys also needed fighter cover.

Juha

 

[davebender]

The Luftwaffe wasn't forced to stop air raids, daylight or otherwise. Luftwaffe losses during the BoB were typically less then what RAF Bomber command incurred for a similiar size attack. Britain decided results were worth the cost and just kept bombing for 6 years straight. Germany decided results were not worth the cost so they halted the bombing campaign after only a few months.

If the Luftwaffe were RAF Bomber Command....
The Do-217 which entered service during late 1940 would receive a high production priority. Several JG worth of the new longer range Fw-190s and Me-109Fs would be assigned specifically for bomber escort. Aircraft, crew, fuel and supplies for this sustained bombing program would take priority over almost every other military program. Allied nations like Hungary and Romania would be required to contribute substantial resources to the ever increasing German strategic bombing effort. During 1942 the Do-217 would be superceded by the He-277 (those troublesome He-177 coupled engines being discarded early on in order to get the new bomber into production quickly). Half the engines for the new He-277 would be produced in allied nations.

Meanwhile the German Army and supporting tactical air forces would be about half historical size due to the bombing campaign eating up so much of wartime production.

 

[Juha]

Dave
in your opinion, why LW stopped the massive daytime air raids against London after 15 Sept, if it wasn't because of losses inflicted by FC?

 

[tail end charlie]

Only at night. During the daytime the RAF only had to defend territory that was within the operational radius of a Me-109E. That's a relatively small area.

Dave

I dont know what you mean, If the RAF didnt have coverage for the whole of the UK with fighters then those areas not covered would be as vulnerable to daytime bombing as the whole of the UK was at night. The area covered by an Me109 was admittedly small but included the outskirts of london and a huge number of vital airfields and factories. If fighters were taken south from North england Scotland and N. Ireland it would leave huge areas of vital industry vulnerable to unopposed daylight bombing which even in 1940 could be devastating.

Whereas London was an important target and needed to be defended there were much more vital areas in the north which needed defending.

 

[tail end charlie]

The Luftwaffe wasn't forced to stop air raids, daylight or otherwise. Luftwaffe losses during the BoB were typically less then what RAF Bomber command incurred for a similiar size attack. Britain decided results were worth the cost and just kept bombing for 6 years straight. Germany decided results were not worth the cost so they halted the bombing campaign after only a few months.

Dave

At the time in 1940 the LW daytime losses in aircraft were exceeding their production. Daylight raids needed ever more protection within the limited radius of Bf109s which were down to about 400 servicable planes by the end of daylight raids. the night bombing of UK was stopped eventually by the invasion of Russia

 

[Nikademus]

Dave
in your opinion, why LW stopped the massive daytime air raids against London after 15 Sept, if it wasn't because of losses inflicted by FC?

Flagging morale, as immortalized by Oberleutnant Ludwig Franzisket's sardonic comment on 15 Sept.."Here come those lasty fifty Spitfires!"

Hitler's announcement very shortly after that day postponing SeaLion indefinatley sealed the deal.

 

[Juha]

One detail, according to Price of the 28 Spits and Hurris lost over SE England on 15 Sept 40 13 was shot down by LW fighters, 6 by LW bombers and 9 lost for unknown causes. So LW bombers clearly weren't toothless on that day.

Juha

 

[Glider]

Luftwaffe total strength and servicability, Battle of Britian (Luftflt 2,3,5) OOB, 8/10/40 (number in ( ) denotes servicable)

Fighters (1E) :813(702)
Fighters (2E) :319(261)
Bombers (2E) :1360(998 )
Dive Bombers :406(316)
LR Recon :113(78 )

(source: Hough, Richards "Battle of Britian")

On the eve of the battle (7/20/40) they estimate 700 Hurricanes and Spitfires vs. 1,089 109's and 110's. German servicability was roughly estimated at '3/4' aka around 75%. Fighter Command, the principle force that would defend against the onslaught had "high servicability" (?? i'd wager high means 80-90%)

If it helps Fighter Command Records for the 10 August have servicable fighters as being

Blenheim - 60
Spitfire - 245
Hurricane - 382
Defiant - 22
Gladiator - 2

Most of the Blenhiem fighters at this stage would be night fighters so you are looking at 627 1st rate SE fighters. If anyone wants to add the Defiants and Gladiators then they can. These figures arfe of course for the whole of fighter command.

 

[tail end charlie]

Flagging morale, as immortalized by Oberleutnant Ludwig Franzisket's sardonic comment on 15 Sept.."Here come those lasty fifty Spitfires!"

Hitler's announcement very shortly after that day postponing SeaLion indefinatley sealed the deal.

Nikademus
In fairness to Hitler and Goering (the guys often get a bad press) the Luftwaffe did destroy the RAFs frontline strength from sept 1939 to sept 1940, its just that British industry/RAF made more aeroplanes and trained/imported more pilots. For Adolf and Hermann not to consider that Britain would increase AC production is, frankly, silly (there I go again).

 

[davebender]

The entire UK would be protected. However areas outside of Me-109 range need only be protected by second rate fighter aircraft like the Gloster Gladiator and Bristol Beaufighter.