Black Widow vs Amerikabomber

[Poor Old Spike]

Would night-flying Amerikabombers have got through the US defences?

"I completely lack the bombers capable of round-trip flights to New York with a 5-ton bomb load.
I would be extremely happy to possess such a bomber which would at last stuff the mouth of arrogance across the sea."-Hermann Goering 1938

The Germans had an atomic bomb program...
A nazi study of an atomic bomb blast on Manhattan.

P-61 Black Widow nose radar

Black Widows

 

[Matt308]

Not gonna happen with that machine, those logistics, that 'bomb' and that Ahole.

 

[Thorlifter]

They may have been able to get through once or twice, but the AR 264 just didn't exist in "fearful" numbers. And I would imagine "IF" they had got through, it wouldn't take long to have P-61's and night flying P-38's and F4U's all along the East coast.

 

[bobbysocks]

also you are a long way from home.....the road back is even more dangerous...they know you are out there!

 

[Poor Old Spike]

Food for thought- B-29's atom-bombed Japan in broad daylight without being intercepted...

 

[Jenisch]

Food for thought- B-29's atom-bombed Japan in broad daylight without being intercepted...

But not without being noticed...

Not the best source, but an interesting segment of the Wik article about the Amerika Bomber:

Included in the plan was a list of 21 targets of military importance in North America. Many of these would not have been viable targets for conventional bombers of World War II, operating from bases in Europe. Of these targets, 19 were located in the United States; one in Vancouver, Canada (a possibly achievable target for a similar Japanese project) and one in Greenland. Nearly all were companies that manufactured parts for aircraft, so the goal was likely to cripple US aircraft production.[2]
Aluminum Corp. of America in Alcoa, Tennessee; Massena, New York; Badin, North Carolina and Vancouver, British Columbia
Wright Aeronautical Corp. in Paterson, New Jersey and Cincinnati, Ohio
Pratt Whitney Aircraft in East Hartford, Connecticut
Allison Division of G.M. in Indianapolis, Indiana
Hamilton Standard Corp. in East Hartford, Connecticut and Pawcatuck, Connecticut
Curtiss Wright Corp. in Beaver, Pennsylvania and Caldwell, New Jersey
Sperry Gyroscope in Brooklyn, New York
Cryolite Refinery in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania and Cryolite Mine in Arsuk, Greenland
American Car Foundry in Berwick, Pennsylvania
Colt Manufacturing in Hartford, Connecticut
Chrysler Corp. in Detroit, Michigan
Allis-Chalmers in La Porte, Indiana
Corning Glass Works in Corning, New York
Bausch Lomb in Rochester, New York

Very definetely the Americans would respond to a bombing treat from a Nazi superbomber with the P-61 and probably new and more powerful night-fighters. And also with the B-36, if Britain was not longer in the war. It would extremely unlikely however, that the Germans would drop an atomic in NY unless the Americans used the atomic bomb against a major German city.

 

[dobbie]

Food for thought- B-29's atom-bombed Japan in broad daylight without being intercepted...

That single flight might well have been mistaken for a weather aircraft which is why nothing was sent against it.

 

[Jenisch]

Deleted.

 

[Jenisch]

Deleted.

 

[Poor Old Spike]

...It would extremely unlikely however, that the Germans would drop an atomic in NY unless the Americans used the atomic bomb against a major German city.

But assuming Hitler had got the atom bomb BEFORE America, he'd almost certainly have hit NY with it to force America to surrender or at least negotiate a peace settlement.
After all, two atomb bombs on Japan made them instantly quit at the drop of a hat.
Are there any Civilisation players here like me? It's sooooo sweet to get your hands on nukes before your enemies and plaster all their cities with mushroom clouds..

 

[Poor Old Spike]

Originally Posted by Poor Old Spike: Food for thought- B-29's atom-bombed Japan in broad daylight without being intercepted...

That single flight might well have been mistaken for a weather aircraft which is why nothing was sent against it.

Yes that's my reading of it, there were only 3 B-29's in each of the atomic strikes, so the Japs didn't think it was worth intercepting them or firing flak at them.

 

[GregP]

They made three Me 264 Amerika Bombers. How much damage can you DO with 3 planes?

If they had gotten through even once, the defenses would have been reinforced to a large degree and detection by radar would certainly have been possible since the range was only good at altitude ... not at wave-top height.

If the Me 264 had been made in numbers, then the issue might have been interesting ... and I think the defense would have made it quite intense for the attackers. 20 bombers met by 500 fighters makes for a really interesting bomb run. Since it wasn't made in numbers and deployed, we never had to stop them n real life during the war.

 

[Poor Old Spike]

They made three Me 264 Amerika Bombers. How much damage can you DO with 3 planes?...

With an atom bomb dropped from each, it'd have been goodbye NY, Boston and Washington.
Before he developed the A-bomb, I'm sure Hitler would have made propaganda raids on American cities with ordinary bombs, they'd have done very little damage to US industry but he'd have LURVED to feed his ego by boasting that he'd bombed America.
Likewise his V1 flying bombs and V2 rockets did zilch damage to British war production, but he got satisfaction simply from firing them at London, that's how sickos get their kicks.
Madman Saddam did that by firing Scuds at Israel, they had no effect at all on the Israeli military but doing it gave him a warm fuzzy feeling and made him feel important.

 

[Jenisch]

But assuming Hitler had got the atom bomb BEFORE America, he'd almost certainly have hit NY with it to force America to surrender or at least negotiate a peace settlement.

Abwehr would need to present reliable information to the Füher about America's nuclear project (this is a vital detail, susceptible to fail, and thus even if the Americans do not have the bomb, the Nazis would still be puzzled about the risk of a nuclear counter-attack).

I suppose you are talking about nuke NY because every other more safe method to compell the Americans to sign peace was already tried. But even so, can you provide details of this scenario. Specifically: who is at war?

 

[GregP]

Hey Poor Old Spike,

Germany didn't HAVE the atomic bomb ... in real life. So it wasn't ever a possibility.

'What Ifs" can never be won by either side since they deal in fantasy. You are arguing from a position of sceince fiction. But ...

If they had used ANY of the weapons available in real life, the outcome was forgone.

Alas, they didn't and couldn't. Never happened and so ... never could since the time and year are well in the past. The Axis lost and went extinct as a political entity. If you tried to resurect it today, the WORLD would be against you and they are MUCH stronger now than they were in 1939.

The Amerika Bomber was nothing in real life but a VERY interesting prototype aircraft that was never selected for production but would have been the only strategic bomber the Third Reich ever had if it had been made in numbers.

 

[gjs238]

After all, two atomb bombs on Japan made them instantly quit at the drop of a hat.

Or was it the threat of Communist invasion?

 

[Poor Old Spike]

The Nazis dabbled in atomic experiments all through the war, here the Allies overun and dismantle Nazi nuclear equipment at Haigerloch in April 1945.

 

[Jenisch]

The Nazis dabbled in atomic experiments all through the war, here the Allies overun and dismantle Nazi nuclear equipment at Haigerloch in April 1945.

View attachment 226864

It's not my area, but members like Stona can explain you this. The fact is that at least from what is avaliable of evidence, the Nazis were not even closer to obtain an atomic bomb. There's no evidence of the Germans having anything closer to the Manhattan Project, and no, the Germans didn't had superbrains.

 

[Shortround6]

....., and no, the Germans didn't had superbrains.

The had actually run more than a few of the superbrains out of the country in the late 30s.

I would also be a little suspicious of the planned range of the Me 264 vs it's actual range.

 

[Jenisch]

The had actually run more than a few of the superbrains out of the country in the late 30s.

Not only this: people popularily think that Nazi Germany was a country with superbrains everywhere. It wasn't like that. If the Germans wanted an atomic bomb, they would have to follow the steps of huge investments and research that every country who developed the bomb followed. I'm not denying that the Germans had advantage in technology in some areas, but the Allies actually had advantages over Germany as well, what is rarely mentioned. In actual fact, Nazi Germany and the Allies were in overall more or less even in terms of scientific development.

I would also be a little suspicious of the planned range of the Me 264 vs it's actual range.

They could have a plane of the type. What would not be certain would be when they would achive the necessary specifications and the model would be ready for operation.