Black Widow vs Amerikabomber

[krieghund]

For those that move in Physics circles may find this interesting...........

 

[Jenisch]

So, the effort in the Manhattan Project was in most part usless compared to the Germans since they developed the technology with much less effort? I'm skeptical about this...

 

[Gixxerman]

I've seen a range comparison of the Me 264 (4 and 6 engine versions) when the Germans were still debating producing things like the Focke Wulf 400, the Heinkel 277 274 and it looks like they calculated it was possible to go to the USA with a useful bombload come back.

But outlined projections, calculations and even wind tunnel models are a very long way off of a proper series of tested prototypes in an integrated program which leads to large number of crew aircraft in service in multiple squadrons.
Same story with a lot of late German projects (ditto for instance the Horten H.XVIII proposal for the 'Amerika bomber').

This, together with no credible A-bomb, leads me to imagine if the war had continued for longer
(perhaps the weather never does clear in early June D-day for various reasons does not happen in 1944.....and that huge difference advantage of taking off from France and not central or western Germany remains possible)
that at best - assuming the program is not cancelled for an all-fighters production program - a piecemeal use of prototypes singly or in small groups gets used.
I think US defences would have them for breakfast.

 

[Gixxerman]

For those that move in Physics circles may find this interesting...........

I think this has been thoroughly debunked.
I have read that even the minute traces of radiation found in the general area (and not centred on a supposed test site) can be explained by the periodic stationing of nuclear equipped Russian units in that area during the cold war.....and not forgetting the dusting Europe got from the Chernobyl disaster.

.,...oh and just to throw another one into the mix, there's even a tale about a super-secret Japanese A-bomb program (and test) but the area is now a secret Russian territory so nobody can go check anything.

 

[krieghund]

.,...oh and just to throw another one into the mix, there's even a tale about a super-secret Japanese A-bomb program (and test) but the area is now a secret Russian territory so nobody can go check anything.

Actually the site is in North Korea supposedly in about the same location of the now operating North Korean nuke factories

 

[Maximowitz]

It's not my area, but members like Stona can explain you this. The fact is that at least from what is avaliable of evidence, the Nazis were not even closer to obtain an atomic bomb. There's no evidence of the Germans having anything closer to the Manhattan Project, and no, the Germans didn't had superbrains.

.....being the operative phrase in your paragraph. You might be suprised when certain documents eventually become declassified.

As for "superbrains" - they had Werner Heisenberg. The "father" of Quantum Physics.

 

[Jenisch]

You might be suprised when certain documents eventually become declassified.

Perhaps.

The Amerika Bomber concepted included planning for nuke NY, as you posted. Perhaps an indirect indicator of the Nazi nuclear project? Very superficial to be said, but it has some sense.

 

[wuzak]

Perhaps.

The Amerika Bomber concepted included planning for nuke NY, as you posted. Perhaps an indirect indicator of the Nazi nuclear project? Very superficial to be said, but it has some sense.

It shows they planned to have nukes. It doesn't show how close it came to reality.

As for the Me 264, one of teh great hinderances to that project was the lack of suitable engines. The first prototype was initially fitted with Jumo 211s of (from my memory) 1200hp rather than the planned for DB 603s of 1750hp.

Me 264 V1 was later fitted with BMW 801s. V2 and V3 didn't fly.

There were proposals for a number of different engines - combinations of piston engines with jets in the wing root, turboprop, turboprop + jet, 4 and 6 engined variants in tractor, pusher and push-pull arrangements. Plus there was a plan to use a pair of 6000hp steam turbines, parts of the first prototype of which were found after the war. The steam turbine was to use 65% pulverised coal/35% petrol to save on the latter.

 

[Marauderman26]

The Me 264 is still an interesting design to study. Potential was there but the design was in a very early stage of development.

Messerschmitt Me 264

 

[Shortround6]

Perhaps the performance (calculated?) might judged by looking at the American long range bombers? The B-29, Lockheed B-30 (Bomber version of the Constellation), Douglas XB-31, B-32, Northrop XB-35 flying wing and the B-36 (initial work started in Oct 1941).

The US bombers were to carry much larger bomb loads.

 

[Gixxerman]

Actually the site is in North Korea supposedly in about the same location of the now operating North Korean nuke factories

You're right, my bad (should have read my own link better).
Hardly surprising the Koreans would take over an existing facility (which might or might not have some useful kit left in it).

 

[krieghund]

You're right, my bad (should have read my own link better).
Hardly surprising the Koreans would take over an existing facility (which might or might not have some useful kit left in it).

They probably didn't know till the surfed the web!

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

The Amerika Bomber was nothing in real life but a VERY interesting prototype aircraft that was never selected for production but would have been the only strategic bomber the Third Reich ever had if it had been made in numbers.

One could argue the He 177 was a strategic bomber. It was built in sizable numbers as well.

Alas, they didn't and couldn't. Never happened and so ... never could since the time and year are well in the past. The Axis lost and went extinct as a political entity. If you tried to resurect it today, the WORLD would be against you and they are MUCH stronger now than they were in 1939.

Why would anyone try and do this?

 

[Jenisch]

One could argue the He 177 was a strategic bomber. It was built in sizable numbers as well.

I think it was better than the B-17, as long as it's engines worked with reliability.

Why would anyone try and do this?

Actually there had been or even there were still regimes similar to ones of the Axis. The "problem" of the Axis was that they lost the war in their wish to implement a new world order by force, this is why the former Allied governments condemn them so much. Sorry if I offended anyone who the family suffered in their hands, but this is how geopolitics work.

 

[Poor Old Spike]

Strictly speaking, if Hitler had developed an atomic bomb he wouldn't have needed an Amerikabomber to deliver it, he could simply have ordered a U-Boat to deposit it on the seabed a few miles off NY on a time fuse, then let the blast, radiation and tsunami hit the city.
He'd already used U-Boats to land teams of Nazi saboteurs with conventional explosives on the American mainland, which proved U-Boats could sneak up on America undetected.
If he'd had atomic bombs,a seabed blast would have done a lot of damage to a nearby city-

SEABED NUKE DETONATION VID-
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRyX_itiv0o

(Incidentally the same threat exists nowadays; Iran and North Korea have got subs that could sneak up on the USA with big nuclear bombs, or land squads carrying suitcase-nukes to hit coastal cities or hop on greyhound buses to hit cities a thousand miles inland )

Nazi U-Boats vs USA-
American Theater (1939

WIKI- "On June 12, 1942, the U-boat U-202 landed Dasch's team with explosives and plans at East Hampton, Long Island, New York.Their mission was to destroy power plants at Niagara Falls and three Aluminum Company of America factories in Illinois, Tennessee and New York.

In 1944 there was another attempt at infiltration..Their mission objective was to gather intelligence on the Manhattan Project and attempt sabotage if possible. They sailed from Kiel on U-1230 and landed at Hancock Point, Maine on November 30, 1944"

 

[Jenisch]

Strictly speaking, if Hitler had developed an atomic bomb he wouldn't have needed an Amerikabomber to deliver it, he could simply have ordered a U-Boat to deposit it on the seabed a few miles off NY on a time fuse, then let the blast, radiation and tsunami hit the city.

I never heard about the Russians or any other nuclear power having this "method".

 

[Shortround6]

It is quite possible although getting the "bomb" off the sub so the sub can make a "get away" some what depends on the size of the bomb. The US bombs were about 5 tons apiece. Getting them over the side of a submarine in open water requires a bit of co-operation from the weather. Putting a couple of men ashore a number of miles from a major city is not quite the same thing as manhandling a 5 ton object over the side in or near a major shipping lane.

East Hampton LI is about 100 miles from NY City

Hancock Point ME??? They put a U-Boat into Frenchman bay?

Brave but stupid.

 

[Poor Old Spike]

I never heard about the Russians or any other nuclear power having this "method".

Modern Russian and Western subs carry ballistic missiles with ranges of thousands of miles so they wouldn't need to sneak up on anybodys coastline.
But Iran has got no nukes or missiles and would have to deposit a nuke on the seabed when they get nukes.
However, Iran's main quarrel is with Israel, so they'll hit Israel first from the Mediterranean sea, either by depositing a big nuke on the seabed near Tel-Aviv from one of their 3 big Kilo-class subs like this one-

Or by sneaking up in a midget sub and sending frogmen ashore with small suitcase-nukes. Iran has got at least a dozen midget subs like this-

 

[Poor Old Spike]

It is quite possible although getting the "bomb" off the sub so the sub can make a "get away" some what depends on the size of the bomb. The US bombs were about 5 tons apiece. Getting them over the side of a submarine in open water requires a bit of co-operation from the weather. Putting a couple of men ashore a number of miles from a major city is not quite the same thing as manhandling a 5 ton object over the side in or near a major shipping lane.

A big nuke could be held in place by clamps on the subs hull and simply released by pulling a lever while still submerged.

 

[Gixxerman]

But Iran has got no nukes or missiles and would have to deposit a nuke on the seabed when they get nukes.
However, Iran's main quarrel is with Israel, so they'll hit Israel first from the Mediterranean sea, either by depositing a big nuke on the seabed near Tel-Aviv from one of their 3 big Kilo-class subs....

.....Or by sneaking up in a midget sub and sending frogmen ashore with small suitcase-nukes. Iran has got at least a dozen midget subs like this-

Well it is open to question as to whether Iran even has an advanced nuclear weapons program capable of producing a bomb in the near future (various - non Israeli - reports talk about them being at least 5yrs away) .....but it's a massive leap from the crude few bombs North Korea Iran might have to start talking about miniaturised suitcase bombs.
That takes many more years after the initial break-throughs.

As for 'sneaking up on the USA' in ancient sub tech undetected?
I don't think so.

This is one scenario where I think deterrence might just be a good thing.
The proliferation is not a good thing of course but then I don't trust Israel with her uncontrolled uninspected nuclear weapons program much either
(the so-called 'Samson option' is, in my opinion, nothing but a threatening posture to Europe should Israel's adventures go horribly wrong).
Don't get me wrong, I think Israel has the right to defend herself but not to use western power or the threat of western power to maintain her own nuclear hegemony.
The cold reality of a balance of power in the ME might settle things down a lot.

(I do not hold with the idea that the Iranian leadership are all a bunch of religious nutters just itching to suicide their nation....which would be the only plausible outcome of them attacking anyone with a nuclear weapon)