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There is one factor I haven't seen mentioned, although I haven't read the entire thread. It seems this discussion is focused on which is better: .303 vs .50 cal vs 20 mm. Some have mentioned how earlier in the war when there was less armament that the .303 worked better and later on the 20 mms were added. Each caliber has distinct advantages and disadvantages. Six .303 guns would be spewing a larger quantity of projectiles and so have a greater chance of hitting the target than .50 cal and even more than the 20 mm, but less impact per hit. If a pilot was a good shot, or as some practiced, waiting until they were close behind the enemy before pulling the trigger, then a few 20s might be better. The 50 seems to be a compromise between the two. Kind of like comparing #8 shot with #4 and buckshot. Other factors would be pilot skill and preference, the types of targets (air vs ground), speed etc. Why argue which one was best? Each platform was better at something than the other.
Brits and Americans should not be arguing with each other over who was the greatest.
We should be discussing why the Spitfire and Mustangs were better than the ME and FW, and why the ALLIES won the war over the AXIS powers.
After all, the war of 1776 settled which country had the best military
I think you'll find that on the British side that there was a general reluctance to fight kith and kin with some high level resignations at the beginning so I don't think you were fighting our 'A' Team. After 7 years of war employing mainly German mercenaries and Indian allies, our parliament wasn't willing to spend any more money on it. Us Brits tend to call an end to most wars after about 7 years and negotiate. On a more serious note, I believe that in 1939 through to 1941 the 0.303 Browning was the best and most reliable weapon even though you needed a lot of them. After that, I'd say, 20 mm Hispano cannon are essential for taking down bombers and 0.5 in Browning's for fighter vs fighter combat. For the Brits that means we must have cannon rather than HMGs. At war's end, our continued use of 0.303's appears to me to be criminally negligent.There is one factor I haven't seen mentioned, although I haven't read the entire thread. It seems this discussion is focused on which is better: .303 vs .50 cal vs 20 mm. Some have mentioned how earlier in the war when there was less armament that the .303 worked better and later on the 20 mms were added. Each caliber has distinct advantages and disadvantages. Six .303 guns would be spewing a larger quantity of projectiles and so have a greater chance of hitting the target than .50 cal and even more than the 20 mm, but less impact per hit. If a pilot was a good shot, or as some practiced, waiting until they were close behind the enemy before pulling the trigger, then a few 20s might be better. The 50 seems to be a compromise between the two. Kind of like comparing #8 shot with #4 and buckshot. Other factors would be pilot skill and preference, the types of targets (air vs ground), speed etc. Why argue which one was best? Each platform was better at something than the other. Brits and Americans should not be arguing with each other over who was the greatest. We should be discussing why the Spitfire and Mustangs were better than the ME and FW, and why the ALLIES won the war over the AXIS powers. After all, the war of 1776 settled which country had the best military
1812 settled that definitivelythe war of 1776 settled which country had the best military
20mm Hispano was superior in fighter vs fighter engagements as well. By wars end, the .303 was almost completely relegated to secondary duties. The RAF standardized on 4 20mm Hispano as the primary fighter armament by 1941. Spitfires continued to carry 4 .303's in addition to the 2 20mm strictly because the thin Spitfire wing struggled with the extra 2 cannons when fitted. Although some did, like the Mk.VCAfter that, I'd say, 20 mm Hispano cannon are essential for taking down bombers and 0.5 in Browning's for fighter vs fighter combat. For the Brits that means we must have cannon rather than HMGs. At war's end, our continued use of 0.303's appears to me to be criminally negligent.
1812 settled that definitively
You're both wrong, Ireland has the best military. Fought its way to independence after 700 years of occupation. Tiny little nation. With the help of the EU beat the Brits in the BREXIT negotiations.
I have recently watched "The Siege of Jadotville". Interesting moment in Irish history.You're both wrong, Ireland has the best military. Fought its way to independence after 700 years of occupation. Tiny little nation. With the help of the EU beat the Brits in the BREXIT negotiations.
Yes, I've watched that too, it was good. Yes, the Irish were some of our best troops, once Ireland left, the Empire was doomed.I have recently watched "The Siege of Jadotville". Interesting moment in Irish history.
The movie was good, whether or not it was accurate historically
There is one factor I haven't seen mentioned, although I haven't read the entire thread. It seems this discussion is focused on which is better: .303 vs .50 cal vs 20 mm. Some have mentioned how earlier in the war when there was less armament that the .303 worked better and later on the 20 mms were added. Each caliber has distinct advantages and disadvantages. Six .303 guns would be spewing a larger quantity of projectiles and so have a greater chance of hitting the target than .50 cal and even more than the 20 mm, but less impact per hit. If a pilot was a good shot, or as some practiced, waiting until they were close behind the enemy before pulling the trigger, then a few 20s might be better. The 50 seems to be a compromise between the two. Kind of like comparing #8 shot with #4 and buckshot.
There is a continual insistence that rifle-caliber machineguns were just deadweight, that using them against fighters like the FW190 was akin to tickling them with a feather duster. I say this because there is plenty of evidence to the contrary. Consider for starters that - except for two confirmed Hurricane victories - all the RAF victories in the Battle of Britain were won with the .303 Browning. And that was with the relatively-ineffective loadings forced on the RAF in 1940 by a shortage of armor-piercing and semi-armor-piercing-incendiary (Dixon) ammunition.At war's end, our continued use of 0.303's appears to me to be criminally negligent.
I agree. It may have been true that the RAF had trouble bringing down bombers with rifle calibre guns it is also true that a huge number of planes and crew made it back from the BoB but never flew again. Anything containing a human and lots of technical equipment is vulnerable to 8 machine guns, as I understand it the biggest problem was marksmanship and the distance pilots were firing from. Pilots who got in close didn't seem to have a problem.There is a continual insistence that rifle-caliber machineguns were just deadweight, that using them against fighters like the FW190 was akin to tickling them with a feather duster. I say this because there is plenty of evidence to the contrary. Consider for starters that - except for two confirmed Hurricane victories - all the RAF victories in the Battle of Britain were won with the .303 Browning. And that was with the relatively-ineffective loadings forced on the RAF in 1940 by a shortage of armor-piercing and semi-armor-piercing-incendiary (Dixon) ammunition.
RAF eight-gun fighters were still shooting down Luftwaffe fighters and bombers - even models with better armor - well into 1941. An example is Douglas Bader, who thought that eight reliable Brownings was superior to even four Hispanos, and scored his last victories in 1941 in an eight-gun Spitfire Va serial W3185.
Later in the War, Spitfires armed with two Hispano cannon and four Brownings had their Brownings loaded with just AP and SAPI, and they were still being effective against Luftwaffe aircraft in 1945. As an example, when 317 Squadron's Spitfire IXs met the latest Bf109Ks and FW190Ds on January 1st 1945 (during the Bodenplatte raid), examination of the wrecks of two of their victories showed they had been achieved after the attacking pilots had run out of cannon ammunition, and all the damage was from .303 hits.
An even more illuminating example is the loss of two FW190As in Russia, shot down in a case of mistaken identity by a pair of Finnish I-153 biplanes! The Fins had a number of captured I-153s, all of which were re-armed with four Browning .303s to ease ammunition supply issues. They did not have the RAF's Dixon SAPI round, using the much less effective de Wilde ammunition, yet they still shot down both FWs in a single pass. This wasn't the only modern and well-armored fighter the Finnish I-153s scored, they also shot down at least one Russian Airacobra.
Six Commonwealth air gunners reached ace status using only the .303 Browning to defend their bombers. Air gunner Wallace McIntosh, an upper gunner in a Lancaster, scored eight victories against heavily-armored night-fighters with just two .303 Brownings.
Yes, the .50 Browning was better, and the 20mm Hispano was better still (if you could score a hit), but to say the .303 Browning was worthless or "criminally negligent" is obviously false.
I agree. It may have been true that the RAF had trouble bringing down bombers with rifle calibre guns it is also true that a huge number of planes and crew made it back from the BoB but never flew again. Anything containing a human and lots of technical equipment is vulnerable to 8 machine guns, as I understand it the biggest problem was marksmanship and the distance pilots were firing from. Pilots who got in close didn't seem to have a problem.
Any evidence this story? I have not read or heard of such a thing and I didn't think that the Finns i-153 would have shot down Airacobra...An even more illuminating example is the loss of two FW190As in Russia, shot down in a case of mistaken identity by a pair of Finnish I-153 biplanes! The Fins had a number of captured I-153s, all of which were re-armed with four Browning .303s to ease ammunition supply issues. They did not have the RAF's Dixon SAPI round, using the much less effective de Wilde ammunition, yet they still shot down both FWs in a single pass. This wasn't the only modern and well-armored fighter the Finnish I-153s scored, they also shot down at least one Russian Airacobra.