Anything can shoot down anything if you pop up within range. KI43's in China shot down P47's P38's and even B24's
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Anything can shoot down anything if you pop up within range. KI43's in China shot down P47's P38's and even B24'sAny evidence this story? I have not read or heard of such a thing and I didn't think that the Finns i-153 would have shot down Airacobra...
Also, Finns used the same caliber 7,62 as the Russians, why would they have changed the guns?
Anything can shoot down anything if you pop up within range. KI43's in China shot down P47's P38's and even B24's
I have the date as 30th May 1943, and two FW190s from JG26 flying out of Siverskaya. The FWs had engaged some LaGG-3s and IL-2s over the Gulf of Finland and were returning when they were bounced by the Fins. Depending on the source, either both or one of the FW190s went down after one pass. The Finnish I-153s claimed an La-5 and two LaGG-3s in the area. Since the Fins didn't have any FW190s of their own it is understandable that they might mistake an FW190 for an La-5, though hard to imagine how they could mistake a radial-engined FW for an inline-engined LaGG-3. The Russians reported several LaGG-3s but no La-5s lost in the area that day.Any evidence this story? I have not read or heard of such a thing and I didn't think that the Finns i-153 would have shot down Airacobra...
Also, Finns used the same caliber 7,62 as the Russians, why would they have changed the guns?
The pre-War RAF got what it was given by the civil servants of Whitehall, who sometimes listened to the experts, but often didn't. The MoD tried many trials of different armament to replace the old Vickers .303. The .303 Colt-Browning Star machinegun used in the Hurricane and Spitfire was actually meant as a stop-gap until a suitable cannon could be developed. Even then, Ralph Sorley came up with a formula that insisted a minimum of eight .303 MGs were required. The MoD had tried the Vickers 25mm, the Oerlikon 20mm FFL, the 37mm COW gun, and even considered an air-cooled version of the Vickers .5, but none met their criteria for throwing a certain poundage of HE at a target in a two-second burst. The RAF could have had an air-cooled version of the Vickers .5 with SAPI and HE rounds in operation long before 1939.Were Browning M2 50s ever considered as armament for British planes?....
The .50 Browning was perfected just as it became obsolescent as an air to air weaponThough the Hispano got better with time, it wasn't really good until the MkV appeared. By then, the Browning .50 had long since been perfected.
The pre-War RAF got what it was given by the civil servants of Whitehall, who sometimes listened to the experts, but often didn't. The MoD tried many trials of different armament to replace the old Vickers .303. The .303 Colt-Browning Star machinegun used in the Hurricane and Spitfire was actually meant as a stop-gap until a suitable cannon could be developed. Even then, Ralph Sorley came up with a formula that insisted a minimum of eight .303 MGs were required. The MoD had tried the Vickers 25mm, the Oerlikon 20mm FFL, the 37mm COW gun, and even considered an air-cooled version of the Vickers .5, but none met their criteria for throwing a certain poundage of HE at a target in a two-second burst. The RAF could have had an air-cooled version of the Vickers .5 with SAPI and HE rounds in operation long before 1939.
The RAF and MoD did test an early version of the Browning .50, but were not impressed because it did not offer a big enough HE loading. The RAF's fighters were intended as interceptors for killing bombers, and the fashionable thinking of the day (thanks to the French) was that cannon were the way to go. The same thinking saddled the P-39 with the 37mm Oldsmobile M4 cannon.
The MoD developed an unbreakable fixation with the French Hispano 20mm, ignoring all other tried-and-tested options, despite the gathering clouds of War. Hawkers made a pre-War version of the Hurricane for Belgium which carried four .52 FN-Brownings, but the RAF ignored the option. In the Summer of 1940, when the RAF realised they probably needed more punch for the average pilot to knock down a Heinkel 111 with one burst, the Hispano was still a piece of junk. It had unreliable feed from a small magazine, an HE round that was just as likely not to explode on hitting an enemy as it was to explode in the barrel, and no incendiary round nor tracer. They finally got a semi-decent version in the Hispano II in the Hurricane IIC in 1941, by which time the large fleets of Luftwaffe bombers they were intended for were heading off to Russia. Though the Hispano got better with time, it wasn't really good until the MkV appeared. By then, the Browning .50 had long since been perfected.
One reason the RAF and MoD resisted the Browning .50 was Ralph Sorley's formula, and that stated that six .50 Brownings were the very minimum required, with a preference for eight! That is why in 1940 the MoD wasted time asking for versions of the P-40 (and later the P-51) with the capability to carry Hispano cannon, insisted the F4F-4 had to carry six .50s, and is thought to be one of the reasons the P-47 got eight .50s. Once a thought becomes entrenched in the mind of civil servants, it is very hard to change.
The .50 Browning was perfected just as it became obsolescent as an air to air weapon
I have the date as 30th May 1943, and two FW190s from JG26 flying out of Siverskaya. The FWs had engaged some LaGG-3s and IL-2s over the Gulf of Finland and were returning when they were bounced by the Fins. Depending on the source, either both or one of the FW190s went down after one pass. The Finnish I-153s claimed an La-5 and two LaGG-3s in the area. Since the Fins didn't have any FW190s of their own it is understandable that they might mistake an FW190 for an La-5, though hard to imagine how they could mistake a radial-engined FW for an inline-engined LaGG-3. The Russians reported several LaGG-3s but no La-5s lost in the area that day.
I have an FW190-A4 "White 8" wknr 5802, flown by Lt. Reck of 7/JG26 shot down by a Finnish aircraft over the Gulf of Finland on that date. No identity for the second FW190 found.
Hakans Aviation Page mentions the Finnish I-153s as being "....re-armed, having four 7.70mm Browning M.39 machine guns, in place of the original Soviet ShKAS 7.62mm guns...." Regarding the P-39 victory, Hakans says: "....On 29 July a group of five I-153s from 1/TLeLv 16 led by luutnantti H. Härmälä clashed with two Soviet Airacobras from 773 IAP over Korpiselkä. During the ensuing combat between 19:10 and 19:15 one Airacobra was claimed as a damaged by kersantti Rinkineva (IT-31) at Loimola. Ten days later in a POW interrogation it was learnt that the Soviet aircraft had crashed and Rinkineva got a confirmed victory....."
True for air to air combat perhaps, but a 10% increase in kills/damaged is huge for a marginal increase in cost and weight. For attacking ground targets which the P-51 was also used for the more the better.IMO four .50s represented the optimum WW II fighter armament. I've crunched the numbers, using the P-51B/C and 51D as baselines. The 50% increase in D firepower only yielded 10% increase in lethality (credited kills among probables and damaged.) The FM-2 "Wilder Wildcat" reverted to the F4F-3's four-gun armament after the dash four's six (done at RN request, I believe). Some F4F-4 aces I knew said they kept the two outboards as "get me home insurance," including Joe Foss, Swede Vejtasa and George Wrenn.
IMO four .50s represented the optimum WW II fighter armament. I've crunched the numbers, using the P-51B/C and 51D as baselines. The 50% increase in D firepower only yielded 10% increase in lethality (credited kills among probables and damaged.) The FM-2 "Wilder Wildcat" reverted to the F4F-3's four-gun armament after the dash four's six (done at RN request, I believe). Some F4F-4 aces I knew said they kept the two outboards as "get me home insurance," including Joe Foss, Swede Vejtasa and George Wrenn.
I've since found the event in Donald Caldwell's The JG26 War Diary Volume Two 1943-1945, on page 91. Caldwell says the two pilots were a Hauptman Kelch and a Leutnant Reck, with Kelch making it back to Silverskiya in one piece. So, not two FW190s lost to two I-153s armed only with Browning .303s, but one definitely was.
IMO four .50s represented the optimum WW II fighter armament. I've crunched the numbers, using the P-51B/C and 51D as baselines. The 50% increase in D firepower only yielded 10% increase in lethality (credited kills among probables and damaged.) The FM-2 "Wilder Wildcat" reverted to the F4F-3's four-gun armament after the dash four's six (done at RN request, I believe). Some F4F-4 aces I knew said they kept the two outboards as "get me home insurance," including Joe Foss, Swede Vejtasa and George Wrenn.
(my bold)
Hello,
Is the bolded remark equally worth for non-American air forces/services?