Check this bird out!

[FLYBOYJ]

THE XP-72 WAS THE ULTIMATE HEAVY WEIGHT WWII FIGHTER. MY GOD, A MECHANICS NIGHTMARE! - IT WOULD TAKE A WEEK JUST TO CHANGE SPARKPLUGS! :

God forbid you might have to change one of the cans in one of the middle rows!

I worked on 3350s and thought I was sent to Aviation Hell - I think it would take 15 guys to keep one of those things going!

BUT SHE SURE IS PRETTY

 

[Anonymous]

Where do you get that? The P-47N and M pretty much shared the same power plant. Where do you see any info about engine problems on the P-47M?

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Lunatic

The a/c arrived in England in early Jan 1945 and was almost immediately pulled from operations with the 56th FG. Operations were started again in the the last few weeks of WW2.

So, if as you claim there was no problems, why was the a/c pulled from operations?

The engine had abnormally low cylinder head temperatures, the ignition system broke down and the engines were corroded. These problems took several months to correct.

I see no evidence they were pulled from operations. They arrived in England in January, began operations in mid-Febuary, they took losses in both March, April, and May.

BU 44-21222 - Lt. Willard C. Scherz - lost March 5, 1945 - KIA
BU 44-21126 - Lt. Samuel F. Stebleton - lost April 2, 1945 (mid-air collision)
BU 44-21134 "Teacher's Pet" - Lt. William R. Hoffman - lost April 13, 45 - KIA
BU 44-21174 - lost May 1, 1945 near Tiverton, England - crash - unknown pilot killed.

Can you give a source for your information?

=S=

Lunatic

 

[DAVIDICUS]

I have seen the issue of "M" model engine problems raised in several texts. A search on the web will yield additional examples to these below.

From: http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p47_12.html

"The first P-47M was delivered in December 1944, and they were rushed to the 56th Fighter Group in Europe. However, engine problems delayed their use until the last few weeks of the war in Europe . Underwing racks were not fitted, as the P-47M was meant to be operated strictly as a fighter."

Article: "Thunderbolt" by Michael O'Leary (A well-respected WWII aviation researcher)

He states that the P-47M was not operational until April 1945 (only one month before the Germans stopped fighting) because of serious engine-harness, and supercharger problems .

From: http://www.vectorsite.net/avp47.html
"The performance of the YP-47M was excellent, with a top speed of 761 KPH (473 MPH), and the variant was rushed into production to counter the threat of the new German V-1 cruise missiles and German jet fighters. 130 P-47Ms were built, with the first arriving in Europe in early 1945. However, the type suffered persistent teething problems in the field and did not see much action until the war was all but over."

 

[Anonymous]

Then how were pilots being lost in March? KIA implies combat.

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Lunatic

 

[DAVIDICUS]

There was another very impressive evolutionary offspring of the P-47 as well.

XP-47J was first flown in late November 1943

The "J" was fitted with a high output version of the P&W R-2800. Specifically, the R-2800-57. This engine made 2,800 hp @ 2,800 rpm at 35,000 feet. This is in War Emergency Power.

The aircraft actually attained 507 mph at an altitude of 34,300 feet. 2,800 hp is 133% of rated power. At military power (100%), the XP-47J could sustain 470 mph. 435 mph was attained at 81% of its rated power (1,700 hp). All performance figures were obtained at 34,300 feet.

The "J" model was an especially good climbing fighter too. It had a climb rate at sea level of 4,900 fpm. At 20,000 feet, it was still rocketing up at 4,400 fpm, and got there in 4 minutes, 15 seconds. Time to 30,000 feet was only 6 minutes, 45 seconds. The aircraft was flown to a height of 46,500 feet and was capable of a bit more.

 

[Anonymous]

One would expect the P-47M climb performance to have been similar to that of the P-47J. They used the same engine and the cowl would not make much difference for climb rate.

 

[DAVIDICUS]

Supposedly, the "M" had a climb rate of 3500fpm. The "J" had a climb rate of 4,900fpm.

Keep in mind that the "J" was not simply a "D" model that was pulled off the assemply line and souped up. It was an entirely different aircraft that shared some design features.

 

[DAVIDICUS]

RG said, "Then how were pilots being lost in March? KIA implies combat. "

If a plane took off for a mission and crashed enroute, (say, as a result of engine failure) what makes you think that it would be logged as anything other than a KIA? Lots of soldiers were killed by friendly fire and accidents. A lot of the time, their deaths were ofricially recorded as having taken place under circumstances of heroism in the midst of combat for reasons of family and other domestic consumption.

 

[Anonymous]

RG said, "Then how were pilots being lost in March? KIA implies combat. "

If a plane took off for a mission and crashed enroute, (say, as a result of engine failure) what makes you think that it would be logged as anything other than a KIA? Lots of soldiers were killed by friendly fire and accidents. A lot of the time, their deaths were ofricially recorded as having taken place under circumstances of heroism in the midst of combat for reasons of family and other domestic consumption.

KIA implies lost on a combat sortie - i.e. a flight in a combat zone. I did not mean to say it meant the pilot was shot down.

There are lost planes listed for non-combat related reasons too, they do not say "KIA" or "KIFA".

=S=

Lunatic

 

[Anonymous]

Supposedly, the "M" had a climb rate of 3500fpm. The "J" had a climb rate of 4,900fpm.

Keep in mind that the "J" was not simply a "D" model that was pulled off the assemply line and souped up. It was an entirely different aircraft that shared some design features.

My understanding is the J was an early P-47D (with birdcage canopy) fitted with a R2800(C) engine, CH-5 supercharger, and experimental cowlings and props.

Again, climb figures published for US combat aircraft usually represent a normal power climb. The XP-47J, not having been a combat plane, would not have been so constrained. Look at the 1950's and 60's published initial climb rate for the F4U-4 of about 3250 fpm, and 7.5 minutes to 20,000, when the actual climb rate was well over 4000 fpm and 20K could be reached in under 5 minutes. Look at the P-51B, which is typically quoted as having a 440 mph top speed and a climb to 20k of 7.5 minutes when in fact top speed was 450 mph and 20k could be reached in 6.3 minutes at 64 inches of boost, and would of course be a little faster at 67 inches of boost.

Unless you have the actual test documents and can see what boost levels and loadings were being used, published figures on US planes are highly dubious. The XP-47J had a gross weight of 12,400 lbs, the P-47M had a gross weight of 13,275 lbs, a difference of 875 lbs.

The following data implies an initial climb rate for the P-47M in the 4500 fpm range.

P-47M performance was as follows:

Max speed: 470-480 mph @ 28,500 ft. Climb, at max. gross weight (including three 75 gallon drop tanks): 4.9 minutes to 15,000 feet at 2,600 rpm (1700 hp). Reportedly, the "M" could reach 20,000 feet in 5.7 minutes at military power (2,100 hp @ 2,800 rpm). 20,000 feet in 4.75 minutes in WEP (2,800 hp @ 2,800 rpm). This is with full internal fuel and ammo. No external stores or drop tanks. In other words, normal load, clean configuration.
http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Quarters/9485/P-47M.html

Note: I have not confirmed this data, and do not know how reliable it might or might not be, but sources are given at the bottom of this page.

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Lunatic

 

[DAVIDICUS]

I think it implies even higher than 4,500 fpm. It's difficult to make sense of the various performance claims.

There are lost planes listed for non-combat related reasons too, they do not say "KIA" or "KIFA".

Yes, but we both know that it was not unheard of to list non-combat related casualties as KIA.

At any rate, to get back on subject, it does appear that there were issues related to the powerplant on the "M" models.

 

[Anonymous]

I think it implies even higher than 4,500 fpm. It's difficult to make sense of the various performance claims.

There are lost planes listed for non-combat related reasons too, they do not say "KIA" or "KIFA".

Yes, but we both know that it was not unheard of to list non-combat related casualties as KIA.

At any rate, to get back on subject, it does appear that there were issues related to the powerplant on the "M" models.

Not unheard of, but in WWII it was not done that much. There were too many real combat deaths to diminish them with false reports.

The P-47N had almost the identical power plant as the M. There were no reports of significant problems with it. That there were some teething pains I have little doubt, but it does not appear the unit was actually withdrawn from combat because of them.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Where do you get that? The P-47N and M pretty much shared the same power plant. Where do you see any info about engine problems on the P-47M?

=S=

Lunatic

Every source that I have read on the P-47M has said the same thing. Here are 2 of them.

The first P-47M was delivered in December 1944, and they were rushed to the 56th Fighter Group in Europe. However, engine problems delayed their use until the last few weeks of the war in Europe.
http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p47_12.html

The "P-47M" was a more conservative attempt to come up with a "hot rod" version of the Thunderbolt. Three P-47Ds were modified into prototype YP-47Ms by fitting the P&W R-2800-57(C) engine and the GE CH-5 turbo-supercharger.
The performance of the YP-47M was excellent, with a top speed of 761 km/h (473 mi/h), and the variant was rushed into production to counter the threat of the new German V-1 cruise missiles and German jet fighters. 130 P-47Ms were built, with the first arriving in Europe in early 1945. However, the type suffered serious teething problems in the field, and by the time the bugs were worked out, the war in Europe was over.
http://www.bird-center.net/articles/P-47

 

[Anonymous]

Well there is obviously a conflict here. Your source claims the P-47M was "rushed into service in Dec 1944", where reports of service I've seen do not show any operations until March 1945. Which means they would have seen action in the last few months of the war.

 

[KraziKanuK]

The first mission with a M was Jan 14 1945 with the 61st FS. One P-47M and its pilot was lost because of engine failure rtb from the mission. Another engine failure occured Jan 21 1945 with Lt Ed Lightfoot the pilot. He glided down safely and inspection found that the ignition high tension leads had cracks. Further inspection found other Ms with same problem. The 61st went back to flying Ds. The 61st did not fly another mission using Ms until feb 14 1945. The 62cd FS was getting its Ms in early Feb 1945. The 63rd FS getting theirs in later Feb 1945. The 61st did not fly the Ms for long though as ALL P-47Ms were grounded to fix all the bugs that were there.

The 56th FG went back to flying Ds. There was even some tired P-51Bs brought in for pilot conversion training if the Ms could not be fixed. By the end of March 1945, the P-51s and the P-47Ds were gone. The 56th FG flew the last few weeks (4-5) of WW2 using P-47Ms.

The 56th FG flew its last mission on April 21 1945.

SOURCE: Roger A Freeman

 

[Anonymous]

Thank you. So the M operationed from late Feb to the end of March.

Don't suppose you'd have any info on the N's that served in the ETO?

=S=

Lunatic

 

[KraziKanuK]

Thank you. So the M operationed from late Feb to the end of March.

Don't suppose you'd have any info on the N's that served in the ETO?

=S=

Lunatic

AGH?? What did you not understand?

The M had VERY sporatic service from mid Jan til the end of Feb when they were ALL grounded till the last week of March.

 

[Anonymous]

Sorry, I misread it.

But that still means it flew for more than 3 months at the end of WWII.

 

[KraziKanuK]

Sorry, I misread it.

But that still means it flew for more than 3 months at the end of WWII.

That would be pushing it. For the first 6 weeks the 56th FG was not fully equiped and the M spent more time in maintainance than flying. It really only flew as a fully servicable a/c for 1 month > late Mar to Aprl 21 when the 56th flew its last mission.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Well there is obviously a conflict here. Your source claims the P-47M was "rushed into service in Dec 1944", where reports of service I've seen do not show any operations until March 1945. Which means they would have seen action in the last few months of the war.

Okay, "rushed into service in Dec 1944" does not mean that it saw service. Just that it was quickly built and sent to the combat zone. Therefore a P-47 M could have been built in Dec 1944 gotten to Europe in late January 1945 to February 1945 and then grounded until March 1945 to see service int he last few months of the war. Now just because it is not grounded anymore does not mean that it is flying missions. They may not have flown missions until the last few weeks as stated by everyone elses posts other then yours. Can everyone else be wrong.

Don't suppose you'd have any info on the N's that served in the ETO?

I may be wrong but I dont think the P-47N ever made it to the ETO. I thought it was only used in the PTO where it was able to escort B-29's from Saipan all the way to Japan with its very good range. Again though I may be wrong with this.