Churchill agrees to RAF reinforcements to Malaya. What to send?

[Fatboy Coxy]

I know everyone wants to find some use for the Fairey Battle but let's face it. If the Blenheim can't survive in combat against enemy X then the Battle has about zero chance.
How many Battles had self-sealing tanks, or armor ? Not to mention the Blenheim by late 1941 had two high rate of fire machine guns in a powered mount compared to a single high rate of fire machine gun (assuming the Vickers K gun) but aimed with the gunners muscles.

I don't think anyone has any doubt as to the poor survivability of the Fairey Battle, but we're working within the restrictions of the time frame, and whats available. If you compare her to the Japanese light bombers, she doesn't do so bad, for all of them its about working under the cover of air superiority or supremacy. If the RAF fighters can deliver that, she'll do OK, if they can't, no bomber in the RAF will survive well.

Regards
Fatboy Coxy

 

[Admiral Beez]

I don't think anyone has any doubt as to the poor survivability of the Fairey Battle, but we're working within the restrictions of the time frame, and whats available. If you compare her to the Japanese light bombers, she doesn't do so bad, for all of them its about working under the cover of air superiority or supremacy. If the RAF fighters can deliver that, she'll do OK, if they can't, no bomber in the RAF will survive well.

Regards
Fatboy Coxy

The Battle will mostly be facing the Ki-27 Nate. The Ki-27 was not much faster and no better armed than the Battle. I'd give the latter better odds against it than the Bf 109. In the CAS role the Battle will be useful, can it dive at all?

 

[Kevin J]

The Battle will mostly be facing the Ki-27 Nate. The Ki-27 was not much faster and no better armed than the Battle. I'd give the latter better odds against it than the Bf 109. In the CAS role the Battle will be useful, can it dive at all?

The Battle can dive although not vertically. The Hampden can dive bomb too.

 

[Shortround6]

The Battle could dive, but as built and issued there was no dive bomb sight and no dive brakes. The first is easier to fix than the second.
What I find interesting is that when the RAF did issue a requirement for a dive bomber, Fairey and Marcel Lobelle did not put forth the Battle as a cheap and easy "fix" but went to the trouble/expense of designing a different/smaller aircraft that just looked like the Battle. Hawker "won" the competition for dive bomber. Fairey and Lobelle did turn the dive bomber design into the Fulmar.
The Battle had some real problems trying to be a "close support" aircraft. I believe it had a two pitch propeller. Unless you can rig up the boost override device like Hurricanes and Spitis had you have wopping 880hp at sea level. One source claims 210mph at sea level, 240mph at 10,000ft and 257mph at 15,000ft. times to altitude are 4min 6 seconds to 5,000ft, 8 minutes 24 seconds to 10,000ft and 13 minutes to 15,000ft.
I am open to correction.
The Battle has been described as maneuverable. However it is a low energy aircraft and it's recovery time (time needed to regain speed) from a maneuver may be much more than an enemy will give it.

don't expect the results that Ju 87s and SBDs gave for bomb accuracy. And it isn't much faster than the Ju-87B

 

[Admiral Beez]

200 x Fairey Battles
200 x H. Hurricanes
100 x Skuas/Rocs


with ~30% of the above in reserve for 10 x FB squadrons, 10 x HH squadrons and 5 x Skua/Roc squadrons

Whilst idle in this pandemic I've been revisiting Malaya air defence.

Can you also consider sending: the two squadrons of Whirlwinds; and, two squadrons of torpedo capable Wellesleys to support the two Vilderbeest squadrons?

It would be a brave person to order that type of change while the Battle of Britain is still in full swing. I think making such a decision after Barbarossa kicks off is far more likely, and could still get forces into Malaya in time.

Agreed. And moving to summer or early autumn 1941 gives better odds of getting both the Skuas and Whirlwinds sent as they were beginning to be withdrawn or replaced by then.

 

[swampyankee]

The Skuas could likely serve reasonably well in South Asia; I'm not so sure about the Whirlwind, which reportedly had quite higher landing speeds than the RAF's single engine fighters.

 

[Shortround6]

I am not sure how sending numbers of obsolete, worn out aircraft to Mayala really helps out in the defence.

Skua dive bomber production stopped in Aug 1939, last 50 plane out of 190 are completed as target tugs.
How many are even left in serviceable condition in the summer of 1941 is certainly subject to question.
The Wellesley went out of production at the end of May 1938, meaning the newest ones would have been over 3 years old in the summer of 1941.
While 176 had been built that number was much diminished and perhaps only few experimental or oddballs remained in England, No 14,47 and 223 squadrons in the mid east had fought with the Wellesley's for a fair period of time against the Italians. No 47 squadron for instance lost 6 shot down, 7 destroyed by Italian air raids and 8 planes crash landed after damage by enemy action. They also were used by several OTUs in the mid east, and yes one or more served with the Air Torpedo Development Unit.
Trying to scrape up 2 squadrons worth of planes that were still combat capable in the summer of 1941 might not be easy.

Whirlwinds are another story, I like the Whirlwind but sending the two squadrons with them to Mayala in the summer of 1941 thousands of miles from factory support (which they needed) or sources of spare parts (including for the Peregrine engines) seems to be a waste of effort.
Whirlwinds were most certainly NOT being withdrawn in the summer or fall of 1941, in fact the 2nd squadron wasn't formed until Sept 1941. They had yet to be fitted bomb racks in fact (and wouldn't be until the summer of 1942) so getting high performance fighter bombers at that time wasn't going to happen because they didn't exist.

Some Hudsons at least used engines either similar to the engines in the Buffaloes or identical so spare parts and mechanics that knew the engines were in better supply.
Which brings us back to the Skua/Roc situation. They used sleeve valve Perseus engines. Probably not the best choice of engine for Malaysian dirt airfields, and again, an oddball engine thousands of miles from support with green support personnel.

 

[Kevin J]

Whilst idle in this pandemic I've been revisiting Malaya air defence.

Can you also consider sending: the two squadrons of Whirlwinds; and, two squadrons of torpedo capable Wellesleys to support the two Vilderbeest squadrons?

View attachment 576035
Agreed. And moving to summer or early autumn 1941 gives better odds of getting both the Skuas and Whirlwinds sent as they were beginning to be withdrawn or replaced by then.

The only way you'll get 200 more Hurricanes is if you have 200 less Henleys! I'd like the Fairey Battle idea except its too slow, ideally you'd need a twin engine version perhaps powered by the Bristol Mercury. If you want a dive bomber then ramp up production of the Fairey Fulmar II and strip out the naval gear. You want a torpedo bomber then you need a more powerful engine in the Blackburn Botha so that it is useable.

 

[tomo pauk]

A 'tropicalized' Defiant I for 1941 Malaya: turret goes away, a 50 gal tank behind the pilot, 4-6 .303s in the wing (the wing does not get extra fuel tanks like the Defiant II received). Send 200 of these.
Battle - it is already long-ranged, send 150 of these.
Skua - replace Perseus with Mercury, send 150 of these.

 

[Kevin J]

A 'tropicalized' Defiant I for 1941 Malaya: turret goes away, a 50 gal tank behind the pilot, 4-6 .303s in the wing (the wing does not get extra fuel tanks like the Defiant II received). Send 200 of these.
Battle - it is already long-ranged, send 150 of these.
Skua - replace Perseus with Mercury, send 150 of these.

The Defiant lacked the manoeuvrability of the Spitfire and Hurricane and doubt if its dive speed was good. Frankly, the Tomahawks given to the Army Co Op squadrons in England would have been a better choice. Skua maybe with Taurus, but Fulmar II would have been better as it could be dived at 435 mph IAS.
Flying to the Limit: Testing World War II Single-engined Fighter Aircraft

 

[pinehilljoe]

Could Singapore have held out longer with the forces available? If Percival and ADM Phillips were not selected and more capable commanders in place, could they have bought more time using the forces at hand? Phillips spent most of his career as a staff officer. Like Pearl and the Philippines, Singapore was caught between the vacuum of a peacetime army and wartime army.

 

[Kevin J]

Could Singapore have held out longer with the forces available? If Percival and ADM Phillips were not selected and more capable commanders in place, could they have bought more time using the forces at hand? Phillips spent most of his career as a staff officer. Like Pearl and the Philippines, Singapore was caught between the vacuum of a peacetime army and wartime army.

IMO, Percival is the best army man for the job, he knows how to retreat through Malaya. That's the only option he has. Maybe the navy admirals should have been responsible for all the Straits Settlements islands including Singapore as marines knows how to fight to the last ditch. Witness, Leningrad, Odessa and Sevastopol. Perhaps the wrong man was in overall command?

 

[tomo pauk]

The Defiant lacked the manoeuvrability of the Spitfire and Hurricane and doubt if its dive speed was good. Frankly, the Tomahawks given to the Army Co Op squadrons in England would have been a better choice. Skua maybe with Taurus, but Fulmar II would have been better as it could be dived at 435 mph IAS.
Flying to the Limit: Testing World War II Single-engined Fighter Aircraft

Yes, Tomahawks would've been better. OTOH, I don't know how many of them were actually in the UK proper by, say, mid-1941.
Taurus that far away from UK - no, thank you. Plus, it will be making ~750 HP at 15000 ft, or about 100 HP less than Mercury, with extra 300 lbs of weight.

 

[MikeMeech]

Yes, Tomahawks would've been better. OTOH, I don't know how many of them were actually in the UK proper by, say, mid-1941.
Taurus that far away from UK - no, thank you. Plus, it will be making ~750 HP at 15000 ft, or about 100 HP less than Mercury, with extra 300 lbs of weight.

Hi

Around 294 Tomahawks had been delivered to the UK by the end of June 1941 I believe. In the second half of the year Hurricanes (and Tomahawks for UK) are being sent to the Soviet Union, which was a priority over the Far East. Pilots would also have to be sent to the Far East as well with all these proposed aircraft.

Mike

 

[Admiral Beez]

The Skuas could likely serve reasonably well in South Asia; I'm not so sure about the Whirlwind, which reportedly had quite higher landing speeds than the RAF's single engine fighters.

Ideally the Whirlwind would be considered for earlier deployment, and sent to the longer strips. If they can operate loaded Blenheims they can operate Whirlwinds.

Could Singapore have held out longer with the forces available? If Percival and ADM Phillips were not selected and more capable commanders in place, could they have bought more time using the forces at hand? Phillips spent most of his career as a staff officer. Like Pearl and the Philippines, Singapore was caught between the vacuum of a peacetime army and wartime army.

Percival arrived only a few months before the war began. I don't think Monty himself could have averted the catastrophe, though I think he would have held out a little longer. Once Japan seized FIC in Sept 1940 Percival's predecessor Bond should have been busily building defensive works, pill boxes, minefields, and sod the complaints and politics of the plantation owners. When the Japanese took Malaya and Singapore they found warehouses of ready mix concrete, rebar and everything needed to make Malaya a modern day Lines of Torres Vedras.

Dobbie, then General Officer Commanding (Malaya) until 1939 told British high command what was needed. His successor Bond and governor Sir Shenton Thomas hold the blame for not making preparations with whatever arms were made available, not Percival.

Phillips' only two errors IMO were not specifically (rather than generally) requesting air cover and not advising RAF command of his immediate plans and exact whereabouts. Warships are meant to be put in harms way, and you're going to lose a few. Phillips' intel was that there were landings to the north, so that's where he had to go. Even with a dozen Buffaloes overhead Phillips is in a bind. Once war was declared Phillips should have been ordered to Ceylon to meet with HMS Hermes, and then hope to survive until HMS Indomitable arrives (hopefully with some fighters for Hermes).

In Jan 2019 I visited the Battle Box in Singapore. You can just imagine Percival looking over the maps and consulting with his general staff before deciding to surrender. It's a surreal experience that I highly recommend visiting.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Hi

Around 294 Tomahawks had been delivered to the UK by the end of June 1941 I believe. In the second half of the year Hurricanes (and Tomahawks for UK) are being sent to the Soviet Union, which was a priority over the Far East. Pilots would also have to be sent to the Far East as well with all these proposed aircraft.

Mike

I imagine eight or ten squadrons of those Tomahawks would have had an impact. I'm okay with taking some from the USSR, but we can't take from RAF/RAAF squadrons in North Africa. Malaya is at hypothetical risk in autumn 1941, but the Germans were on the ground fighting the Brits and CW throughout 1941 and 42.

 

[Shortround6]

Kind of shoots your own premis in the foot.

You can't send any decent aircraft to Mayala, they are needed in the North Africa. You can take equipement away from Russia which is in shooting war against your enemy.
You can send, however, hundreds of old, obsolete aircraft (and crews both air and ground) where they will become little more than target practice for the Japanese without some sort of coherent command and control structure and early warning system.

BTW

Ideally the Whirlwind would be considered for earlier deployment, and sent to the longer strips. If they can operate loaded Blenheims they can operate Whirlwinds.

You do realize this is wrong on several points?

In the summer of 1941 the Whirlwind was the best bet for ground attack missions into France and the Low countries. At least the best bet for being able to do damage and have a decent chance of survival. The only 4 cannon fighter with enough speed to have a decent chance of evading interception.
Your estimate of the needed runways for the Whirlwind is either flattering to the Whirlwind or insulting to the Blenheim. The Blenheim was practically an STOL machine in modern terms.
The MK grossed about 12,500lbs, the MK IV went about 14,400-14,500 max gross, the MK V went 17,500lb gross max.
Manual for the MK V says that at 16,000lbs take-off speed is 90mph IAS. stalling speed at 16,000lbs was 80mph wheels and flaps up and 70mph wheels and flaps down. Obviously at lighter weights the speeds would be less. Stalling speed for the Whirlwind, gear and flaps down was 98mph IAS.

 

[Admiral Beez]

The Defiant lacked the manoeuvrability of the Spitfire and Hurricane and doubt if its dive speed was good. Frankly, the Tomahawks given to the Army Co Op squadrons in England would have been a better choice. Skua maybe with Taurus, but Fulmar II would have been better as it could be dived at 435 mph IAS.
Flying to the Limit: Testing World War II Single-engined Fighter Aircraft

The Defiant might have done well. Its faster than the Ki-27 and it's firepower should rip apart the unprotected IJAF and IJN twin-engined bombers. The Ki-43 Oscar will be a tricky opponent, one that was thankfully (from the Defiant's perspective) in the early versions only armed with two .303 machine guns. Skua, depending on the condition of those available might be useful as CAS. IMO the best feasible reinforcment for the sixty odd active Buffaloes is another 200 Buffaloes, or Mohawks, or a mix of both.

And now we must consider the worst contenders to serve alongside the Buffaloes. Canada produced the Grumman Goblin. Any of those laying about to build up two squadrons? Any other total rubbish to send? Bulldogs, Nimrods, etc? If there were no Buffaloes at all, so has to be sent.

 

[Kevin J]

The Defiant might have done well. It's faster than the Ki-27 and it's firepower should rip apart the unprotected IJAF and IJN twin-engined bombers. The Ki-43 Oscar will be a tricky opponent, one that was thankfully (from the Defiant's perspective) in the early versions only armed with two .303 machine guns. Skua, depending on the condition of those available might be useful as CAS. IMO the best feasible reinforcment for the sixty odd active Nuffaloes is another 200 Buffaloes, or Mohawks, or a mix of both.

And now we must consider the worst contenders to serve alongside the Buffaloes. Canada produced the Grumman Goblin. Any of those laying about to build up two squadrons? Any other total rubbish to send? Bulldogs, Nimrods, etc? If there were no Buffaloes at all, so has to be sent.

IMO, what's been made available to the AVG should be available to the RAF in S.E.Asia, so Demons, Tomahawks, Lancers and Vanguards.

The Demon and Vanguard unfortunately both need self sealing fuel tanks and armour which would probably take 20 mph of their top speed, reduce their climb rates to sluggish and make them next to useless. The Tomahawk is needed at home, Russia and the Middle East, so no chance. That leaves the Lancer which was probably only fit for photo recon. Alternately, there's always the XP-41, the Lancer with a two-speed Twin Wasp and no turbo. If Curtiss can make lots of planes in 1940/41 then why can't Republic? The Vanguard with a two stage Twin Wasp did 358 mph, now that may have been useful. Don't know.

If you want a close support vehicle, maybe a Wirraway with a Twin Wasp Junior, the similar A-27 had a 785 hp Wright cyclone, but that only gets you a 250 mph close support aircraft, but given a choice between a Fairey Battle and a Blenheim, I'd choose a Blenheim, at least there wasn't a lot of speed difference between it and the Ki-27.

The only way we're going to get decent equipment in the Far East in 1941 is if its manufactured locally, which means Wirraways, maybe even Super Wirraways with the Twin Wasp Junior, Australian Beauforts and Boomerangs so no CAC Woomera project. Perhaps the Canadians could have sent some of the Hampdens and Hurricanes they built over to help their Antipodean allies also.

 

[Admiral Beez]

IMO, what's been made available to the AVG should be available to the RAF in S.E.Asia, so Demons, Tomahawks, Lancers and Vanguards.

Thoughts on the Curtiss-Wright CW-21? What's the Demon? When I search online for combat aircraft called Demon I get the Hawker Demon fighter produced to 1937 and the postwar McDonnell F3H Demon.

If you want a close support vehicle, maybe a Wirraway with a Twin Wasp Junior, the similar A-27 had a 785 hp Wright cyclone, but that only gets you a 250 mph close support aircraft, but given a choice between a Fairey Battle and a Blenheim, I'd choose a Blenheim, at least there wasn't a lot of speed difference between it and the Ki-27.

I agree, more Blenheims would be ideal, both fighter and bomber variants. Though the "fighter" version is still a lumbering beast, as shown below.