Combat records - claims vs. losses

[Schweik]

Sorry it's been so long since I posted, my job got pretty demanding for a while then COVID etc. I don't have time to get back into this full time but I need to at least finish the month of December 1941 so here goes.

21 December 1941

British
Units: 33 Sqn (Hurricane I), 274 Sqn (Hurricane IIb)
Claims (33 Sqn) Ju 88
Losses: None
Casualties: None

Germans
Units: JG 27 (Bf 109F), 1(F)/121, 5./LG 1 (Ju 88s)
Claims: 1 x Blenheim
Losses: 1 x Ju 88A-5
Casualties: 4 x MiA

One other Ju 88 destroyed by AA, 19 Italian fighters and 6 other aircraft destroyed on the ground by bombs / strafing

22 December 1941

British
Units: 250 Sqn (Tomahawk), 112 Sqn (Tomahawk), 2 SAAF Sqn (Tomahawk), ?? Sqn (Blenheim), 24 SAAF Sqn (Boston), 272 Sqn (Beaufighter)
Claims (Tomahawks) 4 x Ju 87, 2 x Bf 109, 1 x MC 202, 1 x Ju 88
Claims (Bostons) 4 x e/a
Losses: 1 x Tomahawk, 2 x Beaufighter
Casualties: 1 x PoW

Multiple German aircraft claimed destroyed on the ground.

Germans
Units: JG. 27 (Bf 109) 4. StG 2 (Ju 87)
Claims: None
Losses: 2 x Ju 87
Casualties: 2 x KiA

23 December 1941

British
Units: 272 Sqn (Beaufighter)
Claims 2 x Ju 52
Losses: 2 x Beaufighter, 2 x Marland
Casualties: 6 KiA, 4 x WiA

Germans
Units: JG 27 (Bf 109F)
Claims: 2 x Maryland, 2 x Beaufighter
Losses: None
Casualties: None

24 December 1941

British
Units: 250 Sqn (Tomahawk IIb), 272 Sqn (Beaufighter), 94 Sqn (Hurricane IIb)
Claims (Beaufighter) 1 x Bf 109
Losses: None
Casualties: None

Hurricane and Tomahawk pilots (Caldwell) claimed German fighters damaged and probable. 1 x Hurricane IIb heavily damaged but managed to land

Germans
Units: JG.27 (Bf 109F), JG.26 (Bf 110
Claims: 2 x Beaufighters
Losses: 1 x Bf 109F-4 (damaged 60% & pilot WiA), 2 x Bf 110
Casualties: 1 x WiA, 4 x MiA

Unclear if Bf 110s were lost in action or due to navigation / weather

25 December 1941

British
Units: 250 Sqn (Tomahawk), 260 Sqn (Hurricane II)
Claims: None
Losses: 1 x Tomahawk FTR
Casualties: 1 x MiA

Apparently loss was to AA but it was unknown

Germans
Units: JG 27
Claims: none
Losses: None
Casualties: 1 x WiA

One Bf 109 heavily damaged by ground fire, pilot WiA

26 December 1941

British
Units: 238 Sqn (Hurricane II), 208 Sqn (Hurricane I), 80 Sqn (Hurricane I)
Claims: None
Losses: 1 x Hurricane
Casualties: 1 KiA

Germans
Units: JG 27 (Bf 109F
Claims: 1 x Hurricane
Losses: None
Casualties: None

27 December 1941

British
Units: 229 Sqn (Hurricane II), 112 Sqn (Tomahawk II), 208 Sqn (Hurricane I), 2 SAAF Sqn (Tomahawk I)
Claims (Hurricane II), 1 x ju 88
Losses: 1 x Hurricane
Casualties: 2 x PoW

Two Tomahawks lost to Flak

Germans
Units: JG 27 (Bf 109F-4)
Claims: 1 x Hurricane
Losses: 1 x Ju 88
Casualties: 4 x KiA

Ju 88 was shot down by Swn Ldr Smith of 229 Sqn (Hurricane)

28 December 1941

British
Units: 260 Sqn (Hurricane I), 238 Sqn (Hurricane II), 805 Sqn (Martlet), 806 Sqn (Hurricane I), RN Fulmar (Fulmar)
Claims (Hurricane) 1 x Ju 88
Claims (Martlet) 1 x SM.79
Losses: 1 x Martlet, 1 x Fulmar, 1 x Hurricane
Casualties: 2 x KiA

Naval combat plus 805 Sqn notable

Germans
Units: JG 27 (Bf 109
Claims: 1 x Hurricane
Losses: None
Casualties: None

Italians
Units: 281 Sq AS (SM 79), 174 Sq RST (SM 79), 71 Sql (MC 202), 72 Sq (MC 202), 80 Sq (MC 202)
Claim:s None
Losses: 2 x SM 79
Casualties: 6 x KiA

9 x MC 202 destroyed on the ground

29 December 1941
(No combat recorded)

30 December 1941

British
Units: 4 SAAF (Tomahawk II), RNFS (Hurricane I)
Claims (Tomahawk) 1 x Ju 88
Losses: None
Casualties: None

Hurricane pilot also claimed a Ju 88 damaged. Several British units were transitioning to Kittyhawks.

Germans
Units: 2F/123 (Ju 88)
Claims: None
Losses: 1 x Ju 88
Casualties: 2 x KiA, 1 x PoW

Italians
Units: 165 Sq (unknown)
Claim:s 2 x Beaufighters
Losses: None
Casualties: None

It doesn't say what type of aircraft made the claim.

31 December 1941

British
Units: 3 RAAF (Kittyhawk I), 272 Sqn (Beaufighter), 274 Sqn (Hurricane II)
Claims (Beaufighter) 1 x Fi 156
Losses: 2 x Hurricane
Casualties: 1 x KiA, 1 x PoW

Kittyhawk pilot Reid claimed a 109 damaged

Germans
Units: JG 27 (Bf 109F
Claims: 3 x Hurricane
Losses: 1 x Ju 88
Casualties: (doesn't say)

Shores notes that a large number of Axis aircraft had been destroyed at Martuba, Gambut, El Adem, Derna, Benima and Gazala during operation Crusader. When they captured the fields the Allies found 458 captured or deserted aircraft, about half German.

 

[Schweik]

Deleted comment, Sorry if I spoke out of turn.

Didn't notice any speaking out of turn...?

 

[Schweik]

So Ok by my count, (and please double check because I definitely could have made errors), I calculate the following:

December 1941

Allied aircraft losses 123

94 Fighters (34 x Tomahawk, 30 x Hurricane II, 20 x Hurricane I, 8 x Beaufighter, 1 x Fulmar, and 1 x Martlet)
26 Bombers (14 x Blenheim, 8 x Maryland, 4 x Boston)
3 Other (2 x DH 86, 1 x DC 2)

Axis aircraft losses 71

42 Fighters (12 x Bf 109F-4, 7 x Bf 110, 13 x MC 202, 7 x MC 200, 2 x G.50, 1 x CR.42)
19 Bombers (8 x Ju 87, 8 x Ju 88, 2 x SM 79, 1 x Cant Z.1007)
9 Transports (Ju 52)
1 Other

Also worth noting, it looks like the German Bf 109s flew almost every day, while the Bf 110s only got involved in air combat anyway on 4 days. The Italians only flew a few days as well, mostly in the first half of the month and especially in the convoy fights. Bomber missions were mostly by German aircraft and were fairly costly.
The Tomahawks flew almost every day, except in the last few days of the month when they were transitioning to Kittyhawks. The Hurricanes flew almost as much. Bomber raids were somewhat rare and tended to be costly.

Keep in mind these only count losses in air to air combat. Losses to AAA were fairly light in this period but would account for maybe 10% more. Many Axis planes were destroyed on the ground.

 

[GregP]

Exactly what is defined as a "loss" for each country and how did we get these records? Did the references these numbers are taken from all record losses in the same manner?

Not trying to hijack the thread, just trying to clarify what a loss is.

In my mind, if an escort fighter shoots the engine out of an enemy aircraft and he glides down and lands, and has the aircraft recovered and repaired, the escort pilot STILL shot a plane out of the sky and deserves a credit; he did his job. Otherwise, you'd have pilots strafing a downed plane or even continuing to shoot at one going down to destroy for sure it rather than protecting the bomber stream.

This has been a stumbling block for many years, and I am not trying to revive it here. I am just trying to see what Schweik counts as a "loss" and where the data comes from.

Just read post #12, and that helps, but I still wonder about "loss" criteria.

 

[Schweik]

Exactly what is defined as a "loss" for each country and how did we get these records? Did the references these numbers are taken from all record losses in the same manner?

Not trying to hijack the thread, just trying to clarify what a loss is.

In my mind, if an escort fighter shoots the engine out of an enemy aircraft and he glides down and lands, and has the aircraft recovered and repaired, the escort pilot STILL shot a plane out of the sky and deserves a credit; he did his job. Otherwise, you'd have pilots strafing a downed plane or even continuing to shoot at one going down to destroy for sure it rather than protecting the bomber stream.

This has been a stumbling block for many years, and I am not trying to revive it here. I am just trying to see what Schweik counts as a "loss" and where the data comes from.

Just read post #12, and that helps, but I still wonder about "loss" criteria.

I think post #12 does indeed explain everything. Most of the ones counted for lost so far are listed in the records as 'shot down' or 'lost' or 'failed to return', a few are 'crash landed' or 'force-landed', usually outside of the base. Those that crash landed in the base are mentioned in the notes I believe I didn't miss any though it's possible I could have. Same for planes which were very heavily damaged but managed to land anyway.

The source for all this - everything I posted so far- is MAW #1. His / their source for losses are the records of the side who lost the aircraft. German records for German aircraft, Italian for Italian, British for British. Claims are noted as nothing more or less than that - claims. Losses as you can see don't always correlate very well.

If you have other specific questions about what counts let me know and I'll answer it.

 

[GregP]

I have Excel files with claims from almost world-wide. The German claims alone are some 68,000 lines.

There were a couple of studies done after WWII by the U.S.A. to vet the claims, including USAAF Report 85. There have been more. After WWII, the most costly war in history, no other nation, as far as I know, put any resources (read that as "money") into trying to vet wartime claims. Indeed, Japan didn't even track individual claims. Most of what we know about Japanese claims comes from individual diaries which are somewhat suspect in their reliability since nobody other than the author was writing or reading them, therefore no victory confirmation process. Also some nations used a "system" for awarding victories based on "points" for a single, twin, 3, or 4-engine aircraft.

In the U.S.A. and Great Britain, a mathematical principle was used. A kill was divided by the number of pilots claiming it, and each pilot gets a part of a kill (0.25 , 0.33 , 0.5 and so on). There were no fractional figures are for individual kills.

In Romania, from 1944, pilots were awarded 3 victories for downing a 4 or 6 engined aircraft, 2 victories for downing a 2 or 3 engined aircraft, and 1 victory for downing a single engined aircraft. Example: Cantacuzino has 56 confirmed kills, but this actually represents a total of 43 planes shot down.

In France, any kill (individual or shared) counts as individual. Also, it was easy for a pilot to confirm any his claim. Many probable kills counted as confirmed kills.

In the USSR and Italy, a "collectivist" principle was used, especially during Spanish Civil War and the begin of WW2. The plane which was shot down by a group of pilots counted as shared kill (group victory). Individual kills (personal victories) were here too. So total score of a pilot is a sum of two figures: personal+shared. Before 1943, planes downed in enemy territory weren't counted in the USSR.

In Germany, "one pilot - one victory" principle was declared. However, occasions are known when the German pilots claimed a number of victories much bigger than actual Soviet losses and even bigger than number of Soviet planes engaged. Example: On 4th July 1943, 7 Soviet planes (2 Hampden, 3 DB-3F of 9GMTAP and 2 Il-2 Shturmovik) attacked a German ship. They were intercepted by six Bf109s lead by commander of 7/JG5 Theodor Weissenberger. One Il-2 was shot down, and one Il-2, two Hampdens and one DB-3F had to ditch on the way home due to combat damage. Only two torpedo bombers managed to land to a airdrome. German pilots claimed 16 "victories", including 7 "kills" by Weissenberger. I'm NOT trying to say this sort of thing was not unique to German pilots, it's just an example.

So, since we only have "vetted" victories for the U.S.A., I don't use them. I use the numbers from the post-WWII victory awards, not comparatively recent numbers where they decided to reduce Greg Boyington's score to help Joe Foss become the leading Marine Ace since he was running for governor of South Dakota at the time. I'll only accept reduced claims when we apply the process to ALL claims, not just someone of political interest. Boyington left the AVG, with a dishonorable discharge, not over victories awarded, but over money not paid to him for claims. The AVG really didn't dispute his claims, but they refused to pay him for all of them. His departure from them was much more of a paycheck argument than anything else, as far as I can tell. There were no more issues with claims after he went back to the Marines and formed VMF 214 until after he returned from captivity and said he got two on his last mission when he was shot down.

 

[Schweik]

Yeah but this thread is kind of a separate issue to all that. I'm not trying to validate individual pilots claims such as to determine Ace rankings - often you just can't do that from the data available. So far what I have transcribed have been fairly small scale engagements but there are some in 1942 and 1943 where 50 - 100 planes made claims from 10 or 15 different units (and sometimes 2 or 3 different countries) in the same engagement, on each side. Several pilots may have shot at the same enemy plane at some point. Who is to say which one actually did the telling damage?

All I'm doing here therefore is showing the total number of claims and the total number of losses. All parties engaged in the MTO at this time did record claims (whether group or individual is somewhat irrelevant to me here). I am just interested in who made claims and who took losses. That can give us some idea of how well each side, and to a lesser extent each unit was doing but it isn't definitive.

Certainly for the period I posted so far though we can see that the Axis, particularly the Germans, were ahead in terms of losses in air to air combat. Later on that would become more even (by around mid 1942) and then it begins to tilt in the Allies favor (in early 1943).

 

[Schweik]

Generally when it comes to assessing someone like an individual ace I just go by the claims (measured against the time in combat) and assume the overclaiming is done at roughly the same rate, though it does vary by Theater and by time period within the war. If you try to go beyond that it becomes a major project. They have figured it out for a few guys, but it's almost always swirling in controversy.

 

[Dimlee]

In the USSR and Italy, a "collectivist" principle was used, especially during Spanish Civil War and the begin of WW2. The plane which was shot down by a group of pilots counted as shared kill (group victory). Individual kills (personal victories) were here too. So total score of a pilot is a sum of two figures: personal+shared. Before 1943, planes downed in enemy territory weren't counted in the USSR

USSR:
There was no total score as such but there were two scores, personal and shared and they were not summed up.
Planes downed over enemy territory were counted, before 1943 and even before WWII (Spain, Mongolia) whenever they were confirmed. For obvious reasons, it was easier to do in friendly territory.
Claims lists of many pilots were double-checked in the post-Soviet period by aviation historians and enthusiasts. So in modern literature, three figures are mentioned occasionally: personal, probable, shared. Or personal with probable in brackets and shared.

 

[GregP]

Hi Dimlee,

They were summed up according to several Soviet authors. I didn't claim what I said above from any personal knowledge of Soviet doctrine and am certainly willing to change my belief if I can get some facts to back it up. I have a couple of files that have Soviet victories classified as 1) personal, 2) shared, 3) group, 4) ground, 5) capture (forced to land), 6)balloon, and 5) unsure of the category. The end score is almost always the sum of these in most lists. I can find one or two that rank according to personal victories, but most I find use the total.

Ivan Kozhebub has 62 individual victories, but no shared victories, so his 62 are just 62.

Nikolai Gulayev has 57 individual victories and 3 shared for a total of 60.

Perhaps you can illuminate the subject a bit with references?

 

[Dimlee]

In pilot flight books and in detailed official biographies and reports one can find detailed breakdown as you mentioned, i.e. personal, shared, ground, etc. etc. The common approach in the military and among the historians was (and still is) to separate personal victories and shared victories and any other as ground. So, for Gulayev the correct and adopted way is to say 57+3 or 57 individual and 3 shared (group) or just 57. ( From other sources, his score was 55+5).
Journalists might sum everything up in their articles for simplicity or just to impress the readers. I have seen "totals" consisting of aircraft and trucks and artillery pieces. I don't think it makes sense.
Among the pilots themselves, shared victories were given various attitudes. Some were eager to count them, others did not care and preferred to "gift" them to wingmen.

 

[Kevin J]

In pilot flight books and in detailed official biographies and reports one can find detailed breakdown as you mentioned, i.e. personal, shared, ground, etc. etc. The common approach in the military and among the historians was (and still is) to separate personal victories and shared victories and any other as ground. So, for Gulayev the correct and adopted way is to say 57+3 or 57 individual and 3 shared (group) or just 57. ( From other sources, his score was 55+5).
Journalists might sum everything up in their articles for simplicity or just to impress the readers. I have seen "totals" consisting of aircraft and trucks and artillery pieces. I don't think it makes sense.
Among the pilots themselves, shared victories were given various attitudes. Some were eager to count them, others did not care and preferred to "gift" them to wingmen.

Or you gifted them all to your colleague who got shot down and killed.

 

[gordonm1]

Didn't notice any speaking out of turn...?

Book Salesman I just got MAW Vol 2. I think I qualify as a FNG now.

Text is a bit tight but I am just celebrating the delivery now. Cool to have some data worthy of the site.

 

[Schweik]

You are Ok in my book at least based on what I've seen so far...