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It is inconcievable that the US would have pursued a Japan first strategy but if they had they would have been impelled to try to relieve the PI. I believe they already had a plan for that, Plan Orange. That plan would have had to be revisited after Pearl Harbor(thank goodness) Actually Yammamoto did us a huge favor by attacking PH. He put paid to the primacy of the BBs, demonstrated the efficacy of the CV and of course aroused the US. Never underestimate the ferocity of the English speaking peoples, especially the US, once they are aroused.
i before e except after c. Inconceivable!
Freebird, you're underestimating the logistics the IJN would need for deep strikes into the Central Pacific. While Truk could be the focus of your operations, it was still a forward base, not a shipyard able to perform repairs and overhauls.
As history showed, the strikes against Midway and Pearl Harbor stretched the IJN fleet train to the limits.
Now if it were operations against the allies in the Indian ocean that were to be performed, its conceivable. Simply because the naval oil sources were not to far from their fleet anchorages.
One thing you should also keep in mind, was the normal attrition rates for reasons other than combat, was taking a toll on the fleet aircrews. After several months of battle, the IJN needed a pause in the action to regroup, refit and rearm.
Also, the IJN carriers were considerably smaller than the US carriers. I don't know the exact figures off the top of my head, but the fleet carriers only carried 70% capacity of the USN types. And their smaller carriers were carrying only as many as 2 dozen or so.
Just saying that a small carrier is going to be the core of your strike force would be a recipe for disaster. Not enough fighters for protection, and not enough bombers to be usefull on the attack.
I must be missing something here. Are we saying that the US carriers were sunk at PH also?
Freebird, the aircraft capacity of the Japanese carriers you quoted, is of the design specs from the mid 1930's. The actual capacity of the carriers in 1942 (with larger sized aircraft as compared to the mid 30's) at Midway were:
Kaga: 72, Soryu: 57, Hiryu: 59, Akagi: 63. Light Carriers were : Zuiho: 18, Ryujo: 30, Junyo: 33.
As for your submarines, while its probable that they could have all 60 or so subs active at the start, maintaining full strength over a period of months would be very hard to do. even 2/3rds strength only leaves you with 40 or so subs, covering an immense area of the world. And that doesn't account for force reductions due to ships being damaged, sunk or in transit.
Saying you will put your subs near the major ports leaves you vulnerable to counter attack by ASW. Even if your subs are not sunk outright by ASW attack, just being forced away from a ship or convoy is success.
As for attacking deep into the central pacific, just what would you really accomplish? You have to do lasting and irrepairable damage to knock Samoa, Playmra, Johnston or Fiji out of the war. And that takes lots of aircraft and multiple raids. In addition, Your carriers would need to be massed into a task force to accomplish anything of military value, thus putting a strain on the fleet supply.
And as events proved in Guadalcanal and New Guinea, the P39's and P40's (that the AAF had available in Hawaii and the line islands in 1942) were adequate against IJN aircraft at the low altitudes, where they would have to fight. Attrition would cripple your air groups in a hurry.
Where did you get your figures from?
I agree, the Japanese would have to put building subs as a priority[/B], to replace losses after the first few months. It does not take very many subs sinkings to force the Allies into a much more cautious shipping policy in the Pacific, which will hamper the South Pacific build-up.
I'm not contemplating raids, I think the Japanese could occupy Samoa outright, and establish a squadron or two there. In the fall of 1941 it is defended by a single US Marine defence battalion. I don't think they would attack Fiji, it is a little more strongly defended. The US would still have troops on Johnson Palmyra.
The point would be to have the US waste months building up to re-occupy Samoa, and to use scarce troop assets to re-inforce US bases in Johnson, Palmyra, Christmas, Midway island etc. The Free French garrison in Tahiti is poorly equipped, I think the Japanese would then only use the air naval bases, while allowing/helping the Vichy French to re-occupy and defend Tahiti.
It would take many months for the US to be able to bring planes troops supplies to the forward bases to be able to offer resistance.[/B] For example, the delays to re-take Samoa re-establish communications would seriously hamper US Australian resistance in the Solomons N. Guinea. With the greater threat from Japanese subs, it would also take a few or many extra months to arrange convoys to bring the vital supplies forward.
Slow it down {the buildup} in the SW Pacific, but not stop a moderate buildup in the Central Pacific from Hawaii to Samoa.
The IJN never had the amphib capability to strike out at long distances.
Even if they achieved success's in the Port Moresby invasion, they still couldn't do anything past the Solomon Islands untill fall 1942.
In which time, they would be challenged by better equipped allied units which would stop them on the spot.
Why do you suppose Samoa would fall so quickly? The Wake invasion in 1941 was nearly a disaster for the IJN. In 1/2 year, the US would have gotten enough troops and aircraft to Samoa and surrounding islands to make a hypothetical Japanese attack or invasion a debacle for them.
And stop wasting time about French Polynesia. It had no military value and it was way to far away to be invaded let alone supplied by Japan
Why would it take "many months"? The US would still have Pearl as a forward shipyard and base even if the oil tanks were wrecked.
Offensive operations deep into the SW pacific could be curtailed, but aggressive patrolling from pearl could still be accomplished. Samoa or Fiji couldn't be threatened untill late 1942 at the minimum. And thats plenty of time to fortify them.
You place far to much credence on Japanese amphib capability (against a defended beach), which usually was dismal even under the best of circumstances.
As for air power, there were several BG's and FG's available to be sent to the various islands to block the Japanese. All Japanese airpower would have to be used from their carriers, all of which all were shown to be vulnerable to allied fighters.
If the US had lost the carriers at "Pearl" and had the Navy shipyards, bases fuel supplies destroyed, they would have to use the Naval assets brought from the Atlantic to escort vital supplies to Hawaii for re-building re-inforcing the island. Next on the list of priorities would be Midway, Wake, Palmyra, Johnson. Samoa could probably not be helped, any more than Guam.
The IJN ability to land troops was very limited and a weak spot with few ships. They could and did have some probably for one landing but they couldn't be everywhere. A serious opposition would wreck havoc with their landing forcesWHAT??? Never had amphibious capability? Then how did they capture Wake Island? What was the land force preparing to do at Midway other than a long-distance amphibious operation?
I think that you are relying on a level of damage that was beyond the ability of the IJN to inflict.
As an example, Malta as we all know was pounded on a vast scale over a period of months, using land based bombers that carried a much larger load than the naval bombers could carry. But the dockyard was still able to function to a limited degree, the subs could still operate for the vast majority of the time, the airfields could still operate and the fuel tanks remained in operation.
The IJN ability to land troops was very limited and a weak spot with few ships. They could and did have some probably for one landing but they couldn't be everywhere. A serious opposition would wreck havoc with their landing forces
Glider the facilities at Malta were hardened to withstand bombing, the ones at Pearl were not. I am hypothesizing if the 3 US Pacific carriers had been caught at Pearl, and the Japanese re-armed re-fueled their aircraft for a "third wave", possible fourth. This was advocated by Genda Fuchida, as the latter reported "many targets remain, shipyards, maintainance facilities, oil tanks, fleet units (DD, CL, CA's).". The first wave returned to the carriers at 10 am, and could have returned as the third wave. Since the carriers would have been out of the way, the Japanese fleet was not in danger.
I still don't think you understand the scale of the attack that Malta had to put up with.
the other facilities. The Harbour cannot be and wasn't hardened, neither were most of the fuel supplies. The airfields were but only to a point, all major maintanence and repairs were off the airfield (a lot of it done in a bus garage).
The USA bases on Pearl were large and able to help each other. Army bases had sophisticated workshops able to assist and the engineers to do it.
It would be too big a nut to crack for the Japanese.
Aircraft can be quickly flown in and these would be the key.
Freebird, youre giving the IJn far to much credit for being able to destroy Pearl Harbor and then conquor most of the Pacific Ocean in short order.
Consider the following:
1) While the IJN could damage the naval base, it could hardly be considered to have the capability of destroying it. There werent enough aircraft, and the dive bombers only could carry a 500 pound bomb.
2) "American anti-aircraft performance had improved considerably during the second strike, and two-thirds of Japan's losses were incurred during the second wave. Nagumo felt if he launched a third strike, he would be risking three-quarters of the Combined Fleet's strength to wipe out the remaining targets (which included the facilities) while suffering higher aircraft losses" .... plus not every fighter and fighter pilot had been knocked out. The time between a 2nd and 3rd strike would have meant the US could put together enough aircraft to inflict damage on the Japanese 3rd strike.
3) "A third wave attack would have required substantial preparation and turn-around time, and would have meant returning planes would have faced night landings. At the time, no Navy had developed night carrier techniques, so this was a substantial risk. The task force's fuel situation did not permit him to remain in waters north of Pearl Harbor much longer since he was at the very limits of logistical support. To do so risked running unacceptably low on fuel, perhaps even having to abandon destroyers en route home"
4) The USN had the resources to rebuild the damaged oil bunkers and refill them within a few months, irregardless of IJN subs.
5) The Japanese light carriers were an odd bunch, and really could not be classified as fleet carriers. The Zuiho and the Ryujo are a case in point. One had elevators to small to handle the val dive bombers, the other didnt have enough speed to allow a fully armed torpedo bomber to take off in light winds. Consider them escort carriers to cover convoys, and not capable for offensive action.
Syscom3,
Freebird is not giving the IJN too much credit at all, you're just giving it too little. As it was the IJN from 41 -42 had the upper hand in capability, it wasn't until 1943 after repeated setbacks caused by poor tactics decisions that the IJN lost its upper hand. So in Freebird's scenario the IJN has lots of chances to significantly alter the historic chain of events.
Freebird, youre giving the IJn far to much credit for being able to destroy Pearl Harbor and then conquor most of the Pacific Ocean in short order.
Consider the following:
4) The USN had the resources to rebuild the damaged oil bunkers and refill them within a few months, irregardless of IJN subs.
syscom3 said:6) The Japanese had to secure the Philipines, Malaya (and Burma),the NEI and Eastern Indian ocean prior to any offensive action into the SW Pacific.
syscom3 said:7) The USN was fully capable of reinforcing Samoa, Fiji and the New Hebrides with enough ground and air units to make a Japanese invasion very costly.
"Sunday Dec 14, 1941. The Navy informed Gen. Marshall that the US Pacific fleet would be unable for SOME MONTHS to participate in offensive actions. The Navy's carriers remained intact but supporting vessels for the carriers were so few in number that great restrictions would have to be placed upon their operation"
syscom3 said:8 ) The fact B17's were present meant the IJN had to move very cautiously outside of their protected area's of the Marshalls and Gilberts.
syscom3 said:9) Even if the three carriers at pearl were caught and knocked out of action, the other three carriers would provide plenty of offensive capabilities to blunt or push back any Japanese advances in the central Pacific.
In Dec 1941 there was no assurance that the Japanese would not launch a major amphibious assault on Hawaii or possibly even on the mainland, the Navy felt that the carriers should be reserveved for reconnaissance and defence. The garrison in Hawaii was so weak that there was general agreement between the War Navy departments that Hawaiian air ground forces should be re-inforced as rapidly as possible and that should take priority over other efforts in the Pacific.
That scenario would have probably lengthened the war by a year or more.
What do you mean irregardless of subs? Will they just keep sending tankers unprotected until some get through? The US does not have enough escorts to bring tankers and support the carriers in 1942. If you mean that they send the Navy to escort oil tankers that would preclude action in the South Pacific
Originally Posted by syscom3
6) The Japanese had to secure the Philipines, Malaya (and Burma),the NEI and Eastern Indian ocean prior to any offensive action into the SW Pacific.
What possible connection is there between the IJA campaign in Burma and the IJN fleet activities in the South Pacific?
Originally Posted by syscom3
7) The USN was fully capable of reinforcing Samoa, Fiji and the New Hebrides with enough ground and air units to make a Japanese invasion very costly.
Actually no, they were not capable at all.
You are basing what they "could have done" on 20/20 hindsight on the exact capabilities of the Japanese. At the time there was no way of knowing what the Japanese would do, so caution defense of the USA proper was the #1 concern, not operations in some far-away Pacific location.
Originally Posted by syscom3
8 ) The fact B17's were present meant the IJN had to move very cautiously outside of their protected area's of the Marshalls and Gilberts.
Without US carriers to provide any fighter escort the Japanese won't be that concerned about B-17s
Originally Posted by syscom3
9) Even if the three carriers at pearl were caught and knocked out of action, the other three carriers would provide plenty of offensive capabilities to blunt or push back any Japanese advances in the central Pacific.
"Offensive capabilities" in Samoa or New Hebrides is the last thing the Navy is thinking about in the winter of 1941.
In Dec 1941 there was no assurance that the Japanese would not launch a major amphibious assault on Hawaii or possibly even on the mainland, the Navy felt that the carriers should be reserveved for reconnaissance and defence. The garrison in Hawaii was so weak that there was general agreement between the War Navy departments that Hawaiian air ground forces should be re-inforced as rapidly as possible and that should take priority over other efforts in the Pacific.
This is how the situation was when the US had all their carriers intact and only a couple of escort vessels damaged at Pearl. In 1941 the USN has about 100 fairly modern destroyers, {+ about 70 older ones decomissioned in reserve that could be used after some overhaul.} If the USN had lost another 25+ destroyers some cruisers at Pearl in addition to the ones lost in the Far East, they will have almost a third of the in-service destroyers out of action.
Originally Posted by renrich View Post
That scenario would have probably lengthened the war by a year or more.
Now if the US UK were facing an Axis U-boat blitz against shipping, destruction of the tank farm, sub base repair facilities on Oahu, loss of carriers escort DD's at Pearl + some commando "spoiler" attacks against the US mainland, the US counter attack against Japan would probably be set back by far more than a year.
The USN had enough destroyers on hand to escort the tankers necessary to restock the oil tanks at Pearl. Would the US have the ability to fight offensively for the first few months? No. But inevitably, and sooner than you would suppose, the US would have the oil available to go on the attack deep into the SW Pacific.
From Wikipedia said:Despite the urgent need for action, little was done to try to combat the U-boats. The USN was desperately short of specialised anti-submarine vessels. The shortages arose partly because the massive new naval construction programme had prioritised other types, and partly because the destroyers that were available remained inactive in port, even while freighters and tankers were being sunk in coastal waters. By Jan 1941 there were 13 destroyers idle in New York Harbour, yet still none were employed to deal with the immediate threat, and over the following nights more ships were sunk.
Syscom3 said:The historical record indicates otherwise. The US in 1941 was already planning the buildup of the islands along the sea lanes to Australia. Samoa and Fiji already had serviceable airfields. Canton, Palmyra, Johnston and several others were already on the list. And if the fleet was tethered to Pearl due to the fuel situation, they still could patrol a few thousand miles out and keep the sea lanes open.
Even if the three carriers at pearl were caught and knocked out of action, the other three carriers would provide plenty of offensive capabilities to blunt or push back any Japanese advances in the central Pacific.
I would think that Eisenhower's own words are a pretty good indication of the "Historical record" The key word you used was "planning". The US did plan and in fact did buildup to some extent in the nearby islands. The Japanese attack throws all of these plans out the window, as there are barely enough escorts to bring troops hardware to Hawaii, Bermuda, Trinidad, Iceland, and the small islands near to Hawaii. The Navy had no escorts abvailable to patrol "thousands of miles out' or to "push the Japanese back" in the Central Pacific. They have the capability to do less than half of what you have planned.