RAGMAN
Airman
was there anyway that the d day landings would not have been successful for the allies? i do not think so.... any scenarios where germany could have won the d day battle?
D DAY
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any scenarios where germany could have won the d day battle?
Better intelligence. Had they known where the landings were to be made and when.......
Steve
michaelmaltby
Colonel
"... Better intelligence. Had they known where the landings were to be made and when......."
I agree.
Overall, German intelligence in the west was pretty sloppy - and - when combined with know-it-all arrogance it was deadly. If the High Command had been able to see through the ruse of Patton's 'paper army' poised to invade the Pas de Calais ... there would have been many more armored forces to throw at the beach head that first fateful day, IMHO.
MM
I agree.
Overall, German intelligence in the west was pretty sloppy - and - when combined with know-it-all arrogance it was deadly. If the High Command had been able to see through the ruse of Patton's 'paper army' poised to invade the Pas de Calais ... there would have been many more armored forces to throw at the beach head that first fateful day, IMHO.
MM
German intelligence in the East was sloppy, too. From late 1942 on anyway. They missed Soviet build up prior Op. Uranus, the intelligence work prior Op. Citadelle (Kursk battle) was nothing to brag about, let alone the wholesale 'maskirovka' Soviets have sold them prior Op. Bagration...
I think the Germans had the ability to stop the D-Day invasion, but with the faulty intel., the forces they had that might have made a difference, were kept too far away, for too long.
Plus by this stage of the war Hitler was too involved in making decisions he should have left to closer to the action commanders.
Plus by this stage of the war Hitler was too involved in making decisions he should have left to closer to the action commanders.
Njaco
The Pop-Tart Whisperer
Waking up Hitler...............
fastmongrel
1st Sergeant
If the decision to cancel on the evening of the 4th hadnt been taken then the storm on the morning of the 5th might have won the battle for the Germans. Imagine the chaos caused by an Atlantic storm battering the landing craft and throwing careful planning to the winds. The cancellation took some bottle from I presume Eisenhower knowing that if the weather didnt clear then the invasion would have to wait for the right tide conditions and weather. Its hard to get everyone to start positions its a nightmare to unload and send them all back to camp.
General Winter saved the Soviets and General Atlanticstorm could have saved the Germans.
General Winter saved the Soviets and General Atlanticstorm could have saved the Germans.
michaelmaltby
Colonel
'maskirovka' ..... isn't that a famous Russian dance of seduction ... 
Seems the English mastered and enjoyed it too.
But your point about sloppy intelligence in the east as well as the west is correct.
MM
Seems the English mastered and enjoyed it too. But your point about sloppy intelligence in the east as well as the west is correct.
MM
davebender
1st Lieutenant
Merville Battery was more or less complete but long range artillery pieces had not yet arrived. If Merville Battery were operational then Sword Beach could be as bloody as Omaha Beach.
If Point du Hoc were operational they might kill a few minesweepers and/or landing craft before getting plastered by Allied battleships.
21st Panzer Division (Caen area) had their Panzer IV battalion but was missing the Panther tank battalion. That Panther battalion would certainly make a difference in the British sector, especially if combined with an operational Merville Battery.
If Point du Hoc were operational they might kill a few minesweepers and/or landing craft before getting plastered by Allied battleships.
21st Panzer Division (Caen area) had their Panzer IV battalion but was missing the Panther tank battalion. That Panther battalion would certainly make a difference in the British sector, especially if combined with an operational Merville Battery.
RabidAlien
1st Lieutenant
1. Give full control (and trust) to the Generals on the site. In addition...actually HAVE all your Generals on-site and not several hundred miles away at meetings and such.
2. Allies postpone the landings for another couple of months. Rommel would have had Utah and Omaha beaches sewn up by then, which would have divided the other beaches and created a gap allowing German reinforcements to nibble at the beachhead flanks.
3. Intel. Seeing through the smokescreen of Patton's "army" and the "intelligence officer" who washed ashore with a briefcase full of plans for "an invasion" conveniently exactly where Hitler thought it would be, that would have ruined the Allies' day.
4. Haven't seen any other thoughts on this, but I think having crack troops manning the walls would have helped a great deal, instead of conscripts, kids, old men, and battle-weary troops pulled out of other meat-grinders.
2. Allies postpone the landings for another couple of months. Rommel would have had Utah and Omaha beaches sewn up by then, which would have divided the other beaches and created a gap allowing German reinforcements to nibble at the beachhead flanks.
3. Intel. Seeing through the smokescreen of Patton's "army" and the "intelligence officer" who washed ashore with a briefcase full of plans for "an invasion" conveniently exactly where Hitler thought it would be, that would have ruined the Allies' day.
4. Haven't seen any other thoughts on this, but I think having crack troops manning the walls would have helped a great deal, instead of conscripts, kids, old men, and battle-weary troops pulled out of other meat-grinders.
Actually the intel officer's body washing up had nothing to do with the Normandy invasion. It was much earlier in the war, and he was in the Mediterranean sea.
It was to fool the Germans about the site of the Mediterranean invasion, which was really Sicily. It was to make them think it would be Sardinia, and/or Corsica.
It was to fool the Germans about the site of the Mediterranean invasion, which was really Sicily. It was to make them think it would be Sardinia, and/or Corsica.
- Thread starter
- #14
RAGMAN
Airman
would the war ships guns knock out those tanks like in italy?
But it wasn't in no small measure thanks to British and Canadian airborne forces,particularly 9.Para who assaulted and occupied the position. Did the battery get into action on D-Day?
Neil Barber wrote.
"Much controversy exists as to whether the guns did open fire on D-Day, and although the reasons why are still the subject of much debate, the overriding fact is that the Battery did not perform to anywhere near its capability. With the failure of the bombing, the only possible reason for this is the consequence of the 9th Battalion attack. As a result, many lives were saved on Sword beach."
Cheers
Steve
parsifal
Colonel
There were serious weaknesses in the German Command Control system with a divided command because of the differences between Rommel and Rundstedt. But something more than what the German system could produce was needed by 1944.....a theatre commander with contyrol over all assets, not just the army, and another for the air force, and anopther for the navy
On balance it probably was rommel that was more correct. I think Rundstedt underestimated the interdiction effects of Allied airpower and the French resistance. The Panzer resewrves needed to be released right away and immediate counterattacks ordered
Once the Allies had achieved total air supremacy over western Europe (except Germany), the game was basically up for them. If Jet fighters and bombers had been available and worked up
Allied fire support was too good by mid-44 for the germans to crush the bridgeheads I think, but they may have delivered a bit of an upset here and there. A more timely retreast from Normandy might have saved more from the train wreack that the withdrawal from France and the low countries became. The Germans should have started to withdraw their static units almost from the beginning and had delay positions in place as the Panzser units began their withdrawal. A more comprehensive demolition of the road and railnetwork may have helped, and destruction of the port facilities certainly deserved more attention.
On balance it probably was rommel that was more correct. I think Rundstedt underestimated the interdiction effects of Allied airpower and the French resistance. The Panzer resewrves needed to be released right away and immediate counterattacks ordered
Once the Allies had achieved total air supremacy over western Europe (except Germany), the game was basically up for them. If Jet fighters and bombers had been available and worked up
Allied fire support was too good by mid-44 for the germans to crush the bridgeheads I think, but they may have delivered a bit of an upset here and there. A more timely retreast from Normandy might have saved more from the train wreack that the withdrawal from France and the low countries became. The Germans should have started to withdraw their static units almost from the beginning and had delay positions in place as the Panzser units began their withdrawal. A more comprehensive demolition of the road and railnetwork may have helped, and destruction of the port facilities certainly deserved more attention.
RabidAlien
1st Lieutenant
You're absolutely correct. That's what I get for not looking stuff up before I type. LOL
Another way the Germans could have won at Normandy would be for the Allies to have put Montgomery in charge. /sarcasm
davebender
1st Lieutenant
716th Division. Merville Battery.
1 x Artillery regiment which formed the core of Merville Battery.
13km inland from Sword Beach.
…..640m x 460m.
…..Protected by wire obstacles, 91m deep minefield and an anti-tank ditch.
…..2cm cannon and machineguns protected against air and infantry attack.
…..Still under construction as of 6 June 1944. Apparently not operational. Instead it had a single battery of old 10cm howitzers to assist with local defense.
…..Seized by a British Bn size task force 6 June 1944 after a 100 bomber attack.
…..German casualties: 22 dead. 22 POW.
Casualty data answers your question.
Long range artillery regiment would have over 1,000 personnel. If they had been present at Merville there would be a lot more German casualties. A lot more British casualties too and in fact a battalion size assault would probably fail when plastered with that much heavy artillery.
1 x Artillery regiment which formed the core of Merville Battery.
13km inland from Sword Beach.
…..640m x 460m.
…..Protected by wire obstacles, 91m deep minefield and an anti-tank ditch.
…..2cm cannon and machineguns protected against air and infantry attack.
…..Still under construction as of 6 June 1944. Apparently not operational. Instead it had a single battery of old 10cm howitzers to assist with local defense.
…..Seized by a British Bn size task force 6 June 1944 after a 100 bomber attack.
…..German casualties: 22 dead. 22 POW.
Casualty data answers your question.
Long range artillery regiment would have over 1,000 personnel. If they had been present at Merville there would be a lot more German casualties. A lot more British casualties too and in fact a battalion size assault would probably fail when plastered with that much heavy artillery.
vinnye
Senior Airman
I would have thought that if Merv ille or any other large battery had been operational on D Day or later - it would have been on the receiving end of 16 inch or 15 inch shells from the fleet offshore. I would not have wanted to be in any emplacement under such weight of rounds.
davebender
1st Lieutenant
Maisey Battery (near Omaha Beach) was operational. RAF Bomber Command and Allied naval units tried to hit the place and both missed.
Battleship main guns are inherently poor for bombardment because most battleship main guns cannot elevate high enough to deliver plunging fire to targets located immediately behind a ridge. It doesn't help that artillery fire bases such as Maisey are relatively small and naval guns are firing from a moving platform.
RAF Bomber Command inability to hit a target measuring 640m x 460m in size during daylight by mid 1944 is another matter....
