FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
YEP!!!
Dec 7th, Pearl Harbour
- Thread starter Hunter368
- Start date
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wmaxt
Staff Sergeant
FLYBOYJ said:
The thing that pops out at me is that in all three (Pearl, Midway, and Leyte Gulf) the Japanese would have won had they kept on and completed their missions.
One more attack on Pearl would have taken out the fuel stores and the dry docks, at a minimum forcing a reduction in our efforts in the first months of the war (also denying the Yorktown at Midway). At a maximum forcing the fleet to move to San Diego.
They had the firepower and manpower to take Midway anyway, our airpower was essentialy gone, again they would be denying us a stratigic base.
They had Taffy 3 and the landing craft/beaches on the edge, had they come on it would have been a disaster for us.
Esp. in situations like Leyte Gulf, you have what is essentialy a suicide mission, you have to drive it home to succede, the effort and sacrifice is wasted if you turn tail and leave half way through.
wmaxt
evangilder
"Shooter"
While that may be try, it still illustrates the point that these were outnumbered American commanders that fought through and won.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
My ex-father in law was on one of the surviving destroyers during Taffy 3 - I don't remember which one but he hated Admiral Halsey....
He said they got pelted pretty bad....
He said they got pelted pretty bad....
syscom3
Pacific Historian
The battle of Savo island in Aug 1942 was another example of the IJN not finishing off with a complete victory at hand.
After the IJN had swept away the US (and Aussie) cruisers, they had a free hand to wipe out the invasion force still anchored offshore, just 30 minutes of steaming time away. What did the IJN admiral do? He sailed away happy with what he did, not with what he could accomplish. The idiot!
Had he took out the transports, the US would have lost Guadalcanal before it even started.
After the IJN had swept away the US (and Aussie) cruisers, they had a free hand to wipe out the invasion force still anchored offshore, just 30 minutes of steaming time away. What did the IJN admiral do? He sailed away happy with what he did, not with what he could accomplish. The idiot!
Had he took out the transports, the US would have lost Guadalcanal before it even started.
wmaxt
Staff Sergeant
Thats kind of my point, the Japanese gave up and retreated a number of times when, had they continued they would have won. The Americans were lucky the Japanese quit, not good in that we beat them, in those situations - not that I'm questioning their courage or ability they didn't give up, the Japanese did, and thats what won the day. Had the Japanese pushed on those occasions we would have been fighting there for another 5 years.
wmaxt
wmaxt
- Thread starter
- #27
wmaxt
Staff Sergeant
Hunter368 said:
Like I pointed out earlier even at Pearl they cut and ran. Had the third strike been launched we would have been so limited we would have lost Coral Sea (no fuel/support for the early missions), Midway (no Yorktown minimum support from Pearl) The possible loss of Austrailia too.
They did the perfect job at Pearl to make sure they lost - they riled us up and left us operational.
wmaxt
- Thread starter
- #29
syscom3
Pacific Historian
Japan had the capacity to hold us off till late 1943. After that time, the Allied forces would have had the quantatative and qualitative edge and Japan would be on borrowed time.
Once the B29's were available in quantity in summer of 1944, then we had the ways of striking any Japanese force/base in the PTO with impunity.
Once the B29's were available in quantity in summer of 1944, then we had the ways of striking any Japanese force/base in the PTO with impunity.
- Thread starter
- #31
wmaxt said:
Isnt the reason for them pulling off bad intelligence though? At Pearl they did not know where the Carriers were so they had get out before they could theoretically strike back.
syscom3
Pacific Historian
Given the state of the art recon abilities for both the US and the IJN at the time, it would have been impossible for them to keep track of the carriers without giving up their planned element of surprise.
wmaxt
Staff Sergeant
I don't think it mattered we only had 3 carriers in the Pacific, and only one that was closely based at Pearl, so at the worst its 1 or two to 6. Our main fleet was sunk at Pearl it was criminal (from the Japanese POV) on Nagumo's part to leave with the job only partialy complete and little real chance of a US counter attack.
My point is that the Japanese could have made it Much Much more difficult if not barely possible for us to retake the Pacific if only, they had just completed their planed operations. We didn't win many/most of the major critical battles the Japanese just quit and gave them to us.
wmaxt
My point is that the Japanese could have made it Much Much more difficult if not barely possible for us to retake the Pacific if only, they had just completed their planed operations. We didn't win many/most of the major critical battles the Japanese just quit and gave them to us.
wmaxt
- Thread starter
- #35
wmaxt said:
One thing we have to all keep in mind also is that still the world was still thinking (for the most part anyway) that the battleship ruled the sea, it did not. The Japanese although were very disappointed that they missed the carriers (and would of made it a clean sweep), they were very very happy with the heavily damage to the surface fleet. They heavily damaged it at almost no cost, big win they were thinking. Now if they had to do it again with say another 6-12 month carrier experence under their belts, they would of realized that the real prizes were the carriers. The surface fleet was very much the secondary target.
syscom3
Pacific Historian
For the record, here are the locations of all six of the US carriers.
Lexington At sea enroute to Midway Island
Enterprise At sea near Oahu
Saratoga In port at San Diego
Wasp In Atlantic
Hornet In Atlantic
Yorktown In Atlantic
Lexington At sea enroute to Midway Island
Enterprise At sea near Oahu
Saratoga In port at San Diego
Wasp In Atlantic
Hornet In Atlantic
Yorktown In Atlantic
I still stand by the firm belief that I have stated before that even if they had gotten the Carriers and all the Oil stocks at Pearl it would not have mattered one bit when it comes to the outcome of the war. The US soon showed the world what its production capabilities were (All laid down or completed after Pearl Harbor:
Battleships: 8
Battlecruisers: 3
Aircraft Carriers: 27
Light Fleet Carriers: 56
Heavy Cruisers: 17
Light Cruisers: 40
Destroyers: 319
Destroyers Escort Type: 332
Submarines: 193
Mine Sweepers: 378
Frigates: 112
Not included are the Fleet Auxillaries, Patrol Boats, Transports, etc...
All of this info taken from Janes Fighting ships 1946 edition.
Basically what I am getting at is, no matter what the outcome of Pearl Harbor the US was only slightly hurt and would recover faster and quicker than anyone. Even if the Carriers and the Oil Reserves there had been hit, it would not have changed the outcome.
Battleships: 8
Battlecruisers: 3
Aircraft Carriers: 27
Light Fleet Carriers: 56
Heavy Cruisers: 17
Light Cruisers: 40
Destroyers: 319
Destroyers Escort Type: 332
Submarines: 193
Mine Sweepers: 378
Frigates: 112
Not included are the Fleet Auxillaries, Patrol Boats, Transports, etc...
All of this info taken from Janes Fighting ships 1946 edition.
Basically what I am getting at is, no matter what the outcome of Pearl Harbor the US was only slightly hurt and would recover faster and quicker than anyone. Even if the Carriers and the Oil Reserves there had been hit, it would not have changed the outcome.
Agreed Alder, once the US war machine got started there was very little that could stop it.
syscom3
Pacific Historian
The only difference in the course of events is what would have happened in 1942 and 1943.
Strategy would be way different. If anything, the three Atlantic carriers would have been sent to the Pacific immediatly early in 1942 rather than soread out over several months.
Strategy would be way different. If anything, the three Atlantic carriers would have been sent to the Pacific immediatly early in 1942 rather than soread out over several months.
I agree. The Carriers would have been sent over sooner. The British allready had Carriers in the Atlantic so that would free up the US Carriers to go to the PTO.
