Maximowitz
Tech Sergeant
Mark, I'm researching KG 51 at the moment, who made the claim if you don't mind me asking?
December 5, 1944 over the Reich
- Thread starter Erich
- Start date
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B-17engineer
Colonel
Erich, what are in your a volumes or what do you write about? sounds cool.
Maximowitz
Tech Sergeant
Cheers, I'll have to look into that.
drgondog
Major
I am away from my woods lists - where is the claim?
- Thread starter
- #26
Erich
the old Sage
B-17 I have done work for many research historians and writers with my database. am working on two night fighter volumes both different and also on a book that one cousin served in a LW day fighter unit mentioned above
Bill went back and looked at a half dozen combat reports from the 357th fg, they all seemed to have taken place west and north of Berlin indicating again and joining in the annihilation of JG 1
Mark are you wanting confirmation of US heavies lost on the 5 December or ...... ?
Bill went back and looked at a half dozen combat reports from the 357th fg, they all seemed to have taken place west and north of Berlin indicating again and joining in the annihilation of JG 1
Mark are you wanting confirmation of US heavies lost on the 5 December or ...... ?
Hiyas Erich,
No, I'm helping a German mate identify the B-17 claimed by the jet. (The claim is in the Tony Woods file for Reich West, late '44, 5 December, think it's the second-last one listed for that date in the supplementals: 05.12.44 Fw. Schmidt 1./KG 51 B-17 05 Ost/GP-35: 1.800 m. 13.08 Film C. 2027/II Anerk: Nr. -).
I think I've got it narrowed down to two possibilities: 44-8518*of the 452nd BG or 43-38693*of the 91st BG. The secondary documents I've seen thus far have both coming down at Talgewilsten, west of Lingen. That appears to be bollocks, as the two small towns involved (Talge and Wilsten), both are to the east and southeast of Lingen, respectively. I suspect wire-crossing in the reporting, as JG 26 claimed a B-17 west of Lingen at 13:36. Schmidt's claim is pretty much directly over Wilsten, and footnote.com says (in the Quick Look window) that a Fort came down at Talge-Wilsten at 13:10.
So, I guess either I or my mate need to pony up for the two MACRs involved, or find someone with access to footnote.
Hope you're rippin' it up E,
Mark
No, I'm helping a German mate identify the B-17 claimed by the jet. (The claim is in the Tony Woods file for Reich West, late '44, 5 December, think it's the second-last one listed for that date in the supplementals: 05.12.44 Fw. Schmidt 1./KG 51 B-17 05 Ost/GP-35: 1.800 m. 13.08 Film C. 2027/II Anerk: Nr. -).
I think I've got it narrowed down to two possibilities: 44-8518*of the 452nd BG or 43-38693*of the 91st BG. The secondary documents I've seen thus far have both coming down at Talgewilsten, west of Lingen. That appears to be bollocks, as the two small towns involved (Talge and Wilsten), both are to the east and southeast of Lingen, respectively. I suspect wire-crossing in the reporting, as JG 26 claimed a B-17 west of Lingen at 13:36. Schmidt's claim is pretty much directly over Wilsten, and footnote.com says (in the Quick Look window) that a Fort came down at Talge-Wilsten at 13:10.
So, I guess either I or my mate need to pony up for the two MACRs involved, or find someone with access to footnote.
Hope you're rippin' it up E,
Mark
drgondog
Major
The challenge is that MACRs are often in the vein of " when I last saw him" (Blow up, leave formation on fire, drop out of formation, etc), as well as the observer frequently not the navigator who's logs (if he saw it) will reflect more precise locations and times. The LW K reports are much more reliable but that late in the war they are frequently missing.
When I get time I may take a look when I get back from 355th Reunion.
Thanks D - the MACRs in this case do give information beyond "last seen at..."
Which is rather upsetting in its own way - both of the crews appear to have been alone over Germany for two hours, and had almost reached Dutch territory when shot down. I'm reminded of the scene in Memphis Belle where one of the gunners sees another aircraft dropping out of formation and says "The bogey-man's gonna get 'em."
I just can't imagine what those boys went through.
Which is rather upsetting in its own way - both of the crews appear to have been alone over Germany for two hours, and had almost reached Dutch territory when shot down. I'm reminded of the scene in Memphis Belle where one of the gunners sees another aircraft dropping out of formation and says "The bogey-man's gonna get 'em."
I just can't imagine what those boys went through.
drgondog
Major
Funny thing - still a lot of a/c that were 'shot down' did make it back - in this case maybe to friendly territory. Do you have a MACR that you think fits? I can look into it.
Thanks for the offer Dragondog, but I'm pretty sure both the Forts involved came down - only question (currently...) is which came down where.
Both were on their own, one being claimed at about 10,000 feet, the other at barely 6,000. There's a tantalising glimpse of the crash time and place (13:10, Talge-Wilsten) on footnote.com, but I haven't yet found a way in which I can trick it to show me the tail number at the same time.
My mate says he's going to download both the MACRs and let me know what he finds - will post here.
Cheers,
Mark
Both were on their own, one being claimed at about 10,000 feet, the other at barely 6,000. There's a tantalising glimpse of the crash time and place (13:10, Talge-Wilsten) on footnote.com, but I haven't yet found a way in which I can trick it to show me the tail number at the same time.
My mate says he's going to download both the MACRs and let me know what he finds - will post here.
Cheers,
Mark
[email protected]
Recruit
- 4
- Nov 18, 2007
Thanks for the info., I hope they declassify the raids, there is a man in Langendiebach that has the info in his attic but I'm still waiting for a reply!
bobbysocks
Chief Master Sergeant
is there a list of the 190s lost and the pilots who bailed out?
- Thread starter
- #35
Erich
the old Sage
for 12/5/44 it depends on what unit .......... where was the 357th fg this date possibly to the north of the area I was interested in ??
drgondog
Major
Erich - as you know all the big battles were from just south of Berlin, Berlin, Eberswalde, Steinhude Lake.
The 357th was mostly Berlin toward Steinhuder Lake - similar to 355th.
The 357th was mostly Berlin toward Steinhuder Lake - similar to 355th.
bobbysocks
Chief Master Sergeant
what i have says ~20 miles North of Berlin. so this might have been at the beginning of the fight. the 362nd Sq was out front when they first ran into attacking 190s.
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- Thread starter
- #38
Erich
the old Sage
Bill is correct but also north of Berlin, over the big city and to the east where JG 301 was located. JG 1 fought to the north and engaged by several different US fg's..........hopeful this is of some help. I see this thread taking shape again which is good.
bobbysocks
Chief Master Sergeant
E~ is there a list of pilots for JG1 lost and who bailed out?
- Thread starter
- #40
Erich
the old Sage
yes KIA and wounded plus hurt or unhurt while bailing out. will have to check a couple sources.
