Do 335

[tomo pauk]

The Allies will need to wait for 1945 to have, in numbers, a plane capable for 470 mph and better. The XP-47J (I love that plane) was using the 'C' series R-2800, as was the P-47M/N, and it took some time to debug the P-47M's engine to work properly.

I think this is no "what if" thread!

Feel free to contribute in any constructive manner to this and other discussions.

 

[davebender]

Americans already had answers to German Panzer IVH, Panther and Tiger tanks too yet getting those answers into production and transported to Europe required about two years. What makes you think American reply to a new German fighter aircraft would be any faster?

 

[BiffF15]

DaveBender,

In my opinion fighter technology in WW2 was a series of leapfrogs. The leapfrogs were mostly reactive but could be seen as proactive. The Zero, P40 and Me109 all came out at roughly the same time but performance was not equal. The P38 came out later but was being worked prior to Pearl Harbor. It then leapfrogged the Zero but was not in "reaction" to the Zero. The P-51 came about due to the Brit's asking for it because they knew they would eventually end up at war with Germany. This could be classified as both reactive as well as proactive. Reactive if looked at from the viewpoint they wanted something to counter the 109, proactive if looking at the distinct possibility that they would get bombed and have difficulty producing enough fighters. When an adversary fighter is shown to have an advantage, the manufacturer as well as the military will want to introduce "upgrades" to make the home team fighter equal or superior. The Griffon engine in the Spit is a good example, as it was being worked during the early part of the war, and not introduced until 43 (I think). It allowed equality / superiority to current production 109's. I don't think countries back then waited to get a beat down to start scheming up improvements (except maybe to some point the Japanese did with the Zero).

Cheers,
Biff

 

[GrauGeist]

Americans already had answers to German Panzer IVH, Panther and Tiger tanks too yet getting those answers into production and transported to Europe required about two years. What makes you think American reply to a new German fighter aircraft would be any faster?

The Allied fighters that could catch the Do335 (and other high-speed Axis aircraft) were already in the works. Several new designs along with existing model upgrades would soon be available. The Allies didn't sit around waiting for a new Axis aircraft to popup, the were constantly testing, enhancing and developing as time went by.

It was just a matter of time before there was a showdown between the fastest of the fast, but that didn't happen. Just like the enevitable showdown between Axis and Allied jets never happened.

 

[stona]

The Allies will need to wait for 1945 to have, in numbers, a plane capable for 470 mph and better.

Gloster Meteor.

Had the Germans produced significant numbers of any aircraft that gave them a major performance advantage, and Do 335 production scheduled for 1944 certainly doesn't amount to that, then it is probable that the RAF would have accelerated development and introduction of a jet fighter.

The Meteor first flew around the time the RLM was ordering Do 335 prototypes.

Cheers

Steve

 

[tomo pauk]

Timing is the key, and historically Do-335 failed in that category.
If the Germans introduce the Do-335 in late 1943 (instead of Me-410), and Allies feel the need to introduce the jet ASAP, what engines could one expect to see in the Meteor and what kind of performance to expect from it? Presumed service use from early 1944?

 

[stona]

1943 is not a realistic time frame for introduction of the Do 335. The first order for ten prototypes was not issued until 27th January 1943. The RLM examined the first mock up in April. The test installation of the rear engine installation was first run on 27th August.
The first flight of V1 was at the end of October 1943. Series production wasn't even planned to start until early 1944.
The Me 210 by contrast was a pre war design.
Cheers
Steve

 

[tomo pauk]

All good.
The Do-335 falls within the category of using the 'off-the-shelf' engine to produce a plane with as much power as possible, for least cost in drag. The Meteor (and other jets) is in the category of breaking the new ground, since it was using, for the time frame, novel engines.
In case Germany deploys a push-puller in early 1944, and Allies deploy jet in same time, that would mean that a bomber stream is escorted by less performing aircraft once it's ~200 miles from Kent. That gives Germans enough time place to deploy their own jets in force, too.

What kind of performance one can expect from Meteor in 1944, on what engines?

 

[stona]

I don't know much about Meteors but I think the Mk 3 entered service in late '44 with the R.R. Derwent engines. I'm confident that this version would have a top speed above that of a Do 335.

Just about everyone on this forum will know more about jet aircraft than me. I've never been much interested in things powered by giant hair dryers

Cheers

Steve

 

[tomo pauk]

I've never been much interested in things powered by giant hair dryers

Preach on, brother Steve

 

[Milosh]

It depends on what engines are fitted to the Meteor.

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/meteor/meteor3-9jan45.jpg

The B.37 engines with 2000lb thrust will give 365mph @ SL and 485mph @ 30,000'.

 

[tomo pauk]

Thanks. The document talks about the engines in the future, and the docu's date is January 1945. Even the 1st engine mentioned, the W.2B/23, is stated as the engine that 'will be fitted' to the Meteor III.

 

[davebender]

Production would be cancelled for same reason Henschel had to cancel production of Me-410. Ostmark engine plant was not building 1,000 DB603 engines per month as planned.

 

[tomo pauk]

The Me-410 was unable to bring anything to bolster LW capacities, especially for daylight operations of 1944. No wonder that got cancelled. For the Do-335 in 1944, nobody, in his right mind would've canceled a plane that is faster than Merlin Mustang, while featuring a heavy punch needed to kill the heavies.

 

[stona]

Production would be cancelled for same reason Henschel had to cancel production of Me-410. Ostmark engine plant was not building 1,000 DB603 engines per month as planned.

Are you sure that's why Henschel didn't make the Me 410?

The decision to have Henschel build the Me 410 was taken in March 1943 and the loss of 500 Ju 188s anticipated and accepted.

On 3rd August 1943 Henschel still hadn't produced a Me 410, but not because of a lack of engines but rather because "they are currently involved in wrapping up current types (Do 217 and Ju 88) and will not be starting production of the Me 410 until early/mid next year" That would be mid 1944! There would be less than a year of the war left, though obviously Milch didn't know that at the time.

In April 1944 there was discussion at the RLM about the distribution of the July, August, September production of DB 603 engines. The majority of the engines were assigned to the Me 410.

I can't find any reference to a shortage of engines preventing production of the Me 410 at Henschel. It may have been a factor, but there were several others.

Cheers

Steve

 

[davebender]

Ostmark engine plant production data. Chart calls it "RLM Plant Austria".
U.S. Strategic Bombing Survey Aircraft Division Industry Report

 

[davebender]

1944, nobody, in his right mind would've canceled a plane that is faster than Merlin Mustang, while featuring a heavy punch needed to kill the heavies.

1944, nobody in his right mind would've delayed mass production of Me-262 either. Unfortunately neither aircraft is much use without engines.

If you want 1944 Germany to mass produce a tandem engine fighter aircraft it must be designed for DB605 engines. However if you are willing to use the smaller engine why not begin design work during 1937 (i.e. when Dornier patented the rear shaft arrangement)? You could have it in mass production during 1941 ILO the problem plagued Fw-190A / BMW801 engine.

 

[tomo pauk]

1944, nobody in his right mind would've delayed mass production of Me-262 either. Unfortunately neither aircraft is much use without engines.

With Me-410 out of the picture, you have the engines. The problem with jet engines in 1944 (at least for German ones) is that each of them will work maybe 10% of the time the DB-603 will. But then, expecting the RLM, Goering, Hitler co. to make flawless decisions is probably too much to ask. And even small mistakes made are compounded by the fact they're against 3 major powers from 1941/42 on.

If you want 1944 Germany to mass produce a tandem engine fighter aircraft it must be designed for DB605 engines. However if you are willing to use the smaller engine why not begin design work during 1937 (i.e. when Dornier patented the rear shaft arrangement)? You could have it in mass production during 1941 ILO the problem plagued Fw-190A / BMW801 engine.

I've already agreed with that.

 

[stona]

Ostmark engine plant production data. Chart calls it "RLM Plant Austria".
U.S. Strategic Bombing Survey Aircraft Division Industry Report

I can't find any reference at the RLM to an engine shortage being the reason that Henschel, despite the March 1943 decision, did not even plan to start production of the Me 410 before "early/mid" 1944, nor that it led to a cancellation of that program..
That is a far more specific response to your original assertion.

"Production would be cancelled for same reason Henschel had to cancel production of Me-410. Ostmark engine plant was not building 1,000 DB603 engines per month as planned"

I don't question the failure of the plant to live up to production expectation, it was far from alone. I haven't seen any evidence that this led to a cancellation of Me 410 production by Henschel. It may have done, or at least have been a contributing factor, but you haven't provided any evidence for that either. You are making an assertion which is not backed up by any evidence. If there is any I would love to see it and will happily defer to it.

It's just a matter of facts, facts based on some evidence. Otherwise you are simply stating your opinion of why the Me 410 production was cancelled at Henschel.

The RLM was definitely preferring the Me 410 over other types in its allocation of the engines it was receiving. That is reflected in the minutes from several meetings at the RLM which are on the record.

Cheers

Steve

 

[davebender]

haven't seen any evidence that this led to a cancellation of Me 410 production by Henschel.

400 x Me-410 produced by Henschel (planned production rate).
They require 800 DB603 engines per month plus spares.

Ostmark was the only large scale DB603 engine plant Germany had. If Ostmark fails to deliver (as happened historically) then aircraft programs which require DB603 engine (Me-309, Me-410, Fw-190C, etc.) are up a creek without a paddle.