Do we need bigger amphibian water bombers? (1 Viewer)

[Dimlee]

Is there any doubt? Of course it will continue. It's no longer possible to save stupid humanity. Maybe it's for the best...

Don't ruin our hopes. And Franek Dolas was an optimist, wasn't he?

 

[Shortround6]

Something to consider with the water bombers is the ability to get into and out of ravines and hillsides.
The Flip side is getting into lakes, reservoirs and harbors (calm coastal waters?).
Maybe the 4 engine planes have the same "field" performance as the twins?
In another thread one of our members had pictures of 3 Canadair's operating as a 'train', landing, scooping and climbing out in quick succession. Not sure if there were photos/videos on the other end. Maybe three drops just a minute or two apart are more effective than either one large drop and then a 10-20 minute delay to the next?
A lot may depend on each fire and/or terrain/fire load.

For some of these planes you need 2-3 crews for each plane. You need at least 2 crews for a long day to fly in daylight. If they try operating at night you need a 3rd crew. Some of the these planes have operated for around 48 hours in the early years (France or Spain?)

 

[Snautzer01]

We need Mars planes pronto or beter
I once stated that b-52 could carpet bomb with water. Still think it's do able.
In fact I do not know why not. I mean a shit load of water om target, good target practise low level, good publicity all round.
How many round usaaf will like to win?

 

[special ed]

Something to consider with the water bombers is the ability to get into and out of ravines and hillsides.
The Flip side is getting into lakes, reservoirs and harbors (calm coastal waters?).
Maybe the 4 engine planes have the same "field" performance as the twins?
In another thread one of our members had pictures of 3 Canadair's operating as a 'train', landing, scooping and climbing out in quick succession. Not sure if there were photos/videos on the other end. Maybe three drops just a minute or two apart are more effective than either one large drop and then a 10-20 minute delay to the next?
A lot may depend on each fire and/or terrain/fire load.

For some of these planes you need 2-3 crews for each plane. You need at least 2 crews for a long day to fly in daylight. If they try operating at night you need a 3rd crew. Some of the these planes have operated for around 48 hours in the early years (France or Spain?)

I'm reasonably sure those were in Spain last year. Excellent airmanship. They are somewhere on the forum.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Is there any doubt? Of course it will continue. It's no longer possible to save stupid humanity.

We will adapt, we always do. Had the houses in LA been built to withstand wildfires they'd be fine today. I expect the building codes will be updated along the lines of these homes.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAePCm5PSnM

This video showcases a house awarded Wildfire Prepared Home status by the Insurance Institute for Business & Home Safety. These are the sorts of homes in Los Angeles and other wildfire zones that will still receive owner's insurance. But if you build your home out of incendiary materials in a wildfire zone, I'd say your SOL.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqsD8c74vy8

 

[cvairwerks]

There are a couple of problems with using very large air tankers. Turnaround time is quite long. The 747's and DC-10's take a minimum of 30 minutes to reload, and that's after shutdown and not including post flight and servicing, which means that you get one drop about every two hours. The big guys need 10,000 foot runways to operate. They cannot drop below 300' AGL and have a very low maximum wind limitation for their drops. The slowest speed they can drop is in excess of 160 mph...Steep canyons are not accessible to them for drops. Sure, being able to carry 24,000 gallons of slurry is great, but if you can't put it where it needs to go, it's not worth much.

 

[Shortround6]

This is from the 1986-87 'Jane's All the Worlds Aircraft' on the Canadair CL-215 (Twin R-2800s)
"The aircraft carries a maximum water or retardant load of 5,346 liters (1,176 Imp gallons). The tanks can be ground filled in two minutes, or scoop filled in 10 s while the aircraft planes at 70kts (130km/h; 81mph). Pick-up distance in still air, from 15m (50 ft) above the surface on approach to 15m (50ft) above the surface on climb out, is 1200 meters (3,935ft).
On a number of occasions single CL-215s have made over 100 drops totaling more than 540,600 liters (117,600Imp gallons) in one day. Full loads have been scooped from the Mediterranean in wave heights of up to 2 meters (6 feet). In 1983 a Yugoslavian CL-215 made 225 drops totaling 1,202,850 liters (264,597 Imp gallons) on fires in one day.
Max take-off weight land 43,500lbs
Max take-off weight water 37,700lbs.
Stalling speed. 15 degrees of flap, 43,500lbs 79 knots (145kph; 90mph)
Max rate of climb at MAX continuous power 43,500lbs 305 m (1000ft)/min.

Again this is from the 1986-87 Jane's and is for the 5th series CL-215 using R-2800-CA3 engines.
It does not say what the drop speed/s are.
Max Cruising speed was 157 kts (291kph, 181 mph) at 10,000ft max continuous power.

 

[SaparotRob]

We need Mars planes pronto or beter
I once stated that b-52 could carpet bomb with water. Still think it's do able.
In fact I do not know why not. I mean a shit load of water om target, good target practise low level, good publicity all round.
How many round usaaf will like to win?

Great idea. Could the current crop (survivors) of B-52 be structurally capable? I'm somewhat aware of the upgrades to be made to the Stratofort. I don't think the majority of B-52s have been modified yet.
It would be awesome to see this plane add to its history by putting fires out instead of being the cause.
Of course, I am biased.

 

[GreenKnight121]

Looking at the multiple water bomber sorties over Los Angeles, I'm wondering how they keep the traffic separated. Is there an air boss flying overhead assigning targets?

Yes, there is - CAL FIRE has several converted OV-10 Broncos that operate as airborne flight-control masters*, directing aircraft courses, timing, etc for safest effective operations.
They had 16 as of spring 2021.

The OV-10's are flown by contract pilots working for DynCorp with a CAL FIRE Air Tactical Group Supervisor in the other seat, responsible for managing the incident airspace and coordinating the air tankers and helicopter operations over the incident.

They have an auxiliary fuel tank fitted in the cargo compartment aft of the rear seat which allows them to remain over a fire for 5 hours before having to land and refuel (and change the aircrew due to fatigue).

* Funny, using an aircraft designed as a FAC (Forward Air Control) aircraft for combat zones to control aircraft attacking wildfires - almost like the missions are really similar, eh?

OV-10 Archives - Fire Aviation

fireaviation.com

A lineup of OV-10 air attack ships at McClellan Air Field, March 24, 2016. Photo by Bill Gabbert.

Fleet | California Fire Pilots Association

www.calfirepilots.com

Laying a smoke trail for the tankers to follow in on the fire: