Dogfight: Me 262 vs. Meteor

[FLYBOYJ]

They are so small I suspect that they were not tactically useful in normal situations. Perhaps their purpose was recovery from a dive or avoidance of Mach Tuck.

They slow the plane down, that simple. As stated several times, early jet aircraft spool up slow and do not slow down easily. The pilots notes for the aircraft describes their operations during normal flight and use during dives. Nothing is mentioned about mach tuck

 

[Zyzygie]

METEOR F8 IN KOREA

…at the end of December, 77 Squadron's role became much more ground-attack orientated, and the unit's Meteors were soon fitted with underwing rockets featuring an Australian-developed napalm warhead. The dangers of low-level attack were quickly demonstrated, however, and in March 1952 Sgts I. Cranston (A77-920) and L. Cowper (A77-120) were both shot down and killed by flak. To try to counter the Meteors' activities, MiG-15s were committed further south [from MiG alley], and on 4 May Plt Off J. Surman was credited with a probable in a brief exchange near Pyongyang. As these engagements were now taking place at lower altitudes, the performance gap between the Meteor and the MiG was less pronounced, and on 8 May Plt Off Bill Simmonds (A77-385) claimed a MiG-15 whose pilot was seen to eject while in a spin. The MiGs were to gain revenge on 2 October when Plt Off O. Cruickshank, RAF, was shot down and killed in A77-436 when he was jumped on returning from a ground attack mission. The last encounter with the MiGs occurred on 27 March 1953 during an armed reconnaissance by four Meteors in the area around Pyongyang. Splitting into pairs, Wg Cdr John Hubble AFC and Flt Lt Rees swung north from a road junction at Namch'onjom, while Sgts George Hale and Dave Irlam headed south. Not long after, Hale and Irlam spotted two RF-80s being followed by a pair of MiG-15s. As his aircraft was fitted with two [air to ground] rocket projectiles, Hale fired these at the nearest MiG, giving its pilot an almighty fright and prompting him to climb and head for home. Irlam than called to say that he had been hit, and Hale became aware of two more MiGs diving out of the sun. One advantage that the Meteor possessed over the MiG-15 was its ability to decelerate rapidly, thanks to extremely effective airbrakes, and Hale was able to cause the MiG to overshoot. Kicking on left rudder, he fired a short burst and saw strikes just behind the cockpit, which produced a plume of black smoke. The MiG then fell away and went straight down. He was not able to follow as he was attacked by two more and forced to turn into them. As he was firing at these, another pair sliced down onto him, so he turned in behind them and secured hits on one, which caused a stream of white smoke to be emitted from its jet-pipe. By now Hale was out of ammunition, so he disengaged and dived back to Kimpo. He was able to do this in relative safety as Hubble and Rees had arrived by this time, prompting the rest of the MiGs to head north. Although his aircraft was riddled with bullet holes, Dave Irlam made it safely back to base and Hale was later awarded with one probable and a damaged.
By the time that the armistice came into effect on 27 June 1953, 77 Squadron had destroyed 1,500 vehicles, twenty locomotives, sixty-five railway carriages, sixteen bridges and 3,700 buildings. Out of a total of 18,872 sorties, 15,000 had been flown in Meteors. Three MiG-15s were claimed destroyed [plus two probable], but this overall effort had to be set against the loss of forty-two pilots, thirty-two of them while flying Meteors.
Caygill, Peter. Meteor from the Cockpit: Britain's First Jet Fighter. Casemate Publishers.

No 77 squadron was to be awarded a presidential citation for their work during the Korean War.

The F8 was competitive with the MiG 15 in terms of dog fighting and unlike the Me 262, was a good ground attack aircraft. Galland stated that due to various problems, the Me 262 was lucky to be able to drop its bombs accurately on a small town.

The Derwent was way in advance of the JUMO interms of performance and reliability:
Derwent 1 JUMO 004 BMW 003
Thrust (kN) 8.9 8.8 7.83
Pressure ratio 3.9 3.14 3.1
Turbine inlet temp C 849 775 770
Spec fuel consumption 1.17 1.39 1.4
Thrust to weight ratio 2.04 1.25 1.28

The Derwent 1 wins on every count...

Also from http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA800524

The average Me 262 engine life before overhaul (or throw-away) above is 30.66/9 = 3.4 hrs!.

Also see The Messerschmitt Me 262 Jet Fighter | Defense Media Network

"Although it was the first by a considerable margin, the Me 262 was not the best jet of its era. Britain's Gloster Meteor, which used more reliable centrifugal-flow turbojet engines, joined the Royal Air Force in 1944. The first practical U.S. jet fighter, the P-80 Shooting Star, reached Europe by May 1945, but saw no combat in World War II...'

 

[FLYBOYJ]

"Although it was the first by a considerable margin, the Me 262 was not the best jet of its era. Britain's Gloster Meteor, which used more reliable centrifugal-flow turbojet engines, joined the Royal Air Force in 1944. The first practical U.S. jet fighter, the P-80 Shooting Star, reached Europe by May 1945, but saw no combat in World War II...'

By the time the Korean war started, all the first generation combat jets (F-80, Meteor, Vampire) matured significantly. These jets in their early forms were just as (if not more in some cases) unreliable as the early Me 262. Comparing the Meteor of the Korean War to the Me 262 of WW2 is like comparing apples to tomatoes.

 

[Zyzygie]

By the time the Korean war started, all the first generation combat jets (F-80, Meteor,
Vampire) matured significantly. These jets in their early forms were just as (if not more in some cases) unreliable as the early Me 262. Comparing the Meteor of the Korean War to the Me 262 of WW2 is like comparing apples to tomatoes.

The JUMO had mild steel flame tubes!! The pilot had to keep a constant check to make sure that the exhaust temperature was kept below 650C...
(All while concentrating on everything else he had to do in the dogfight...)

 

[Zyzygie]

Could air brakes be used to cause an attacking a/c to overshoot the a/c being attacked?

...Hale became aware of two more MiGs diving out of the sun. One advantage that the Meteor possessed over the MiG-15 was its ability to decelerate rapidly, thanks to extremely effective airbrakes, and Hale was able to cause the MiG to overshoot. Kicking on left rudder, he fired a short burst and saw strikes just behind the cockpit, which produced a plume of black smoke. The MiG then fell away and went straight down. He was not able to follow as he was attacked by two more and forced to turn into them...
Caygill, Peter. Meteor from the Cockpit: Britain's First Jet Fighter. Casemate Publishers.

 

[Edgar Brooks]

Sometimes, but your enemy sees airbrakes deploying. Reverse thrust or even thrust vectoring in flight is rather faster.

In WW2?

 

[GrauGeist]

...One advantage that the Meteor possessed over the MiG-15 was its ability to decelerate rapidly, thanks to extremely effective airbrakes...

The MiG-15 had the same ability, however, it's the pilot that makes or breaks an encounter.

If the aggressor doesn't anticipate his quarry's moves, then his ass will get handed to him.

By the way, the air brakes aboard a MiG-15:

 

[FLYBOYJ]

The JUMO had mild steel flame tubes!! The pilot had to keep a constant check to make sure that the exhaust temperature was kept below 650C...
(All while concentrating on everything else he had to do in the dogfight...)

If you really knew anything about jet engines you would know that you control EGT by throttle position unless you have fuel control issues. The most critical time to monitor EGT is during the start and at operations at 100%, that's why all turbine engines are limited on how long you could fly at 100%. All early turbine engines were unreliable regardless of nationality. Do some homework and then come back to play.

 

[Zyzygie]

Quote from The Gloster Meteor :
The Meteor I was an all-metal aircraft of conventional construction, with low-mounted straight wings with two spars, turbojets mid-mounted in the wings, and a high-mounted tailplane to keep it out of the way of the jet exhaust. It had "fence"-style air brakes above and below the wings inboard of the engines to keep the aircraft controllable in a high-speed dive.
The point is that the Me 262 didn't have air brakes...

Quote from Harkins, Hugh . RAF Meteor Jet Fighters in World War II, An Operational Log; Centurion.

Although they never met in combat, it is inevitable that the Meteor III is compared to its wartime rival, the Me. 262. The Meteor III had a higher profile drag compared with that of the Me. 262. This was principally caused by the Meteors higher wing drag, in turn caused by the Meteors lower wing loading, which corresponded to lower maximum speeds compared to the Me. 262. After a series of trials with the Me. 262 at RAE Farnborough in 1945, it was determined that with engines of equal thrust the Meteor III would be 20 mph slower than the Me. 262. On the plus side for the Meteor III, the lower wing loading gave it better take off performance, including a shorter take off run, and better manoeuvrability compared with the Me. 262.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Quote from The Gloster Meteor :
The Meteor I was an all-metal aircraft of conventional construction, with low-mounted straight wings with two spars, turbojets mid-mounted in the wings, and a high-mounted tailplane to keep it out of the way of the jet exhaust. It had "fence"-style air brakes above and below the wings inboard of the engines to keep the aircraft controllable in a high-speed dive.
The point is that the Me 262 didn't have air brakes...

Quote from Harkins, Hugh . RAF Meteor Jet Fighters in World War II, An Operational Log; Centurion.

Although they never met in combat, it is inevitable that the Meteor III is compared to its wartime rival, the Me. 262. The Meteor III had a higher profile drag compared with that of the Me. 262. This was principally caused by the Meteors higher wing drag, in turn caused by the Meteors lower wing loading, which corresponded to lower maximum speeds compared to the Me. 262. After a series of trials with the Me. 262 at RAE Farnborough in 1945, it was determined that with engines of equal thrust the Meteor III would be 20 mph slower than the Me. 262. On the plus side for the Meteor III, the lower wing loading gave it better take off performance, including a shorter take off run, and better manoeuvrability compared with the Me. 262.

This is rubbish - The F.1 was first flown about the same time the first Me 262s were being fielded. 606 Squadron was the first operational Meteor squadron and they began operations in July 1944. At the same time the 262 was beginning actual combat operations claiming its first kill in July 1944. By August 1944, the 262 claimed 19 aircraft. A true WW2 comparison of the Meteor to the Me 262 would be comparing the 262 A-1a to the Meteor F.1 and in that scenario the Me 262 was clearly superior.

 

[Zyzygie]

If you really knew anything about jet engines you would know that you control ETG by throttle position unless you have fuel control issues. The most critical time to monitor EGT is during the start and at operations at 100%, that's why all turbine engines are limited on how long you could fly at 100%. All early turbine engines were unreliable regardless of nationality. Do some homework and then come back to play.

Sorry. I didn't think it necessary to explain that there is a lag between throttle opening and acceleration of the rotating components... So air lags fuel, and so air-fuel ratio is likely to be low for a time, with high temperatures resulting. The ME 262 pilots manual explains all this, and warns that the throttle must be opened very slowly...

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Sorry. I didn't think it necessary to explain that there is a lag between throttle opening and acceleration of the rotating components... So air lags fuel, and so air-fuel ratio is likely to be low for a time, with high temperatures resulting. The ME 262 pilots manual explains all this, and warns that the throttle must be opened very slowly...

As with all early turbine of the period and even later . EGT issues weren't an issue unless you were flying at 100% for extended periods of time or you slam forward the throttle. When I was in college we had a J-34 on a test cell and was able to easily flame it out or over temp it by rapid throttle movements.

On this site we have a collection of flight manuals and pilots notes for various aircraft with one copy of the Meteor Mk 7. Even in that aircraft there was an EGT limit of 680C, 700 above 20,000 feet (10 minute max). In all other operations Max RPM was limited to 15 minutes (14,700 RPM)

 

[FLYBOYJ]

...Hale became aware of two more MiGs diving out of the sun. One advantage that the Meteor possessed over the MiG-15 was its ability to decelerate rapidly, thanks to extremely effective airbrakes, and Hale was able to cause the MiG to overshoot. Kicking on left rudder, he fired a short burst and saw strikes just behind the cockpit, which produced a plume of black smoke. The MiG then fell away and went straight down. He was not able to follow as he was attacked by two more and forced to turn into them...
Caygill, Peter. Meteor from the Cockpit: Britain's First Jet Fighter. Casemate Publishers.

"The final score was five Meteors shot down against three MiGs."

MiGs versus Meteors | Stalemate, the War in 1952?1953 | Australia's involvement in the Korean War

"The battle lasted only ten minutes. Despite the obvious skill and bravery of the Australians and the fact that losses of 77-th squadron were not as great as it seemed in a fever of battles to the Soviet pilots, it became clear to the command of the UN air forces, that the heavy Meteor was not a match to the MIG in battle qualities. The only thing in what Meteors had succeeded, was their ability to sustain a significant damage. In several battles the 77th squadron had lost 4 machines, 6 more had been seriously damaged. Moreover, the greater tactical skills of the "communist" pilots allowed them to strike on Meteors completely unexpectedly. Fearing heavy losses, the UN air forces command withdrew the Meteors from interception operations. The plan of general Lobov achieved a full success. The failures of the 77-th squadron also had political consequences. The RAF Fighter Command, armed mostly with the Meteors, called into question the adequacy of these planes to the tasks of defense in Europe and came to a conclusion about a necessity of modernization of RAF."

Vladimir Kroupnik. Meteors vs MIGs

The Meteor was no match when compared to the MiG-15!

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Why do people insist on comparing later model aircraft with earlier model aircraft of a different type?

 

[GrauGeist]

Why do people insist on comparing later model aircraft with earlier model aircraft of a different type?

Because those types of comparisons guarantee superior outcome!

 

[GregP]

On possible explanation, Adler, is that some aircraft ceased development about the end of the war. Notably the German aircraft. There was no further Ta-152, He 162, Me 163, or Me 262 development and some of the Allied types DID get devloped. It is natural for many people to look at a Meteor and think is is like any other Meteor.

Usually only people interested in fighter aircraft of WWII make the distinction.

What is somewhat puzzling is the people in HERE should BE interested and should know. New posters aren't always quite as interested as we airplane nuts are.

 

[yulzari]

Length of service is often quoted as a factor in comparisons. On that basis it has to be the Meteor as there are 2 still in service having replaced the Boulton Paul Defiant.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Length of service is often quoted as a factor in comparisons. On that basis it has to be the Meteor as there are 2 still in service having replaced the Boulton Paul Defiant.

And what were they doing in service? Chase planes? Target tugs? This comment is a poster child for post 175! Bottom line, a Meteor F.1 was NO MATCH for the Me 262 A-1a!!! Any later Meteor was no match for a MiG-15!!!

With this rationale it supports my argument that the DC-3 was the greatest aircraft (in any category) ever built!

 

[GrauGeist]

We can also ask how the Me262 would have progressed, if either Germany won or had been able to parlay a conditional truce.

As we well know, Messerschmitt was in the process of upgrading the Me262 as seen by the HG series and several prototypes were built and being tested (HGI, HGII), the final and intended HG series, the HGIII not having an opportunity to see life because time ran out. Plenty of other German projects underway that would have also heralded the second generation had conditions been right, so simply saying "oh, the Meteor went on to do great things and the Me262 didn't" is rather lopsided....because the British won - so of course the Meteor would continue on while piles of Me262s were bulldozed into piles and scrapped out.

On the otherhand, the Me262 did continue on for several years afterwards, as a test bed as well as a number being built by the Czechs as the Avia S-92 (and CS-92 two-seater) and in service in the early 50's.

Additionally, the Me262 did inspire the Soviets with the SU-9 ("Aircraft K", not the later "Fishbed") but advancing technology rendered the project obsolete, even after the Su-9 was improved, creating a single Su-11 and again, with a single Su-13.

 

[Juha]

This is rubbish - The F.1 was first flown about the same time the first Me 262s were being fielded. 606 Squadron was the first operational Meteor squadron and they began operations in July 1944. At the same time the 262 was beginning actual combat operations claiming its first kill in July 1944. By August 1944, the 262 claimed 19 aircraft. A true WW2 comparison of the Meteor to the Me 262 would be comparing the 262 A-1a to the Meteor F.1 and in that scenario the Me 262 was clearly superior.

Why not Meteor Mk III? 616 Sqn got its first Mk IIIs in Dec 44, so its clearly a WWII fighter, not that would change the result of the comparation because at least on paper Me 262 was still better but the performance gap was substantially narrower against derwent powered Mk III. But also Mk III was handicapped with snaking and heavy ailerons.