eBay: Boeing B-17 Flying Fortress

Snautzer01 · Apr 2, 2022

The 13th DBAD (dahl'nebombardirovoch-naya aviadiveeziya - Long-RangeBomber Division) was chosen as the unit to be re-equipped with the TU-4s, and the leading
role was assigned to the 185th GvDBAP (Gvardeyskiy dahl'nebombardiro-vochnyyaviapolk - Guards Long-Range Bomber Regiment) based at Poltava. Pilots of this regiment
underwent training in Kazan' under the auspices of the 890th DBAP which was turned into a training unit. Pilots of this regiment had accumulated much experience in flying the
American Boeing B-17 Flying Fortress and Consolidated B-24 Liberator heavy bombers, which enabled them to be the first service pilots to convert to the Tu-4. The B-24s were widely used for mastering the technique of piloting heavy aircraft with a tricycle undercarriage. The regiment catered for training Tu-4 crews until 1955 when the jet-powered Tu-16 began to reach service units. The first Bulls arrived at Poltava in April 1949, and reequipment of the 185th DBAP was completed in May.

Snautzer01 · Apr 3, 2022

RAF Fortress 1

Wurger · Apr 3, 2022

SaparotRob · Apr 3, 2022

Shark tails. I love me my shark tails.

nuuumannn · Apr 3, 2022

Snautzer01 said:
Thought, although i have no prove, you were better then that.

It's not deliberately meant to be aggressive and don't take it personally, snautzer; it's certainly not designed to deliberately upset you. I am pretty direct in person, too and I generally will defend my corner when need be. Don't think of it as an attack on you, I just don't mince words. Conversely, I won't hold back in complementing you in person, too.

Here is your evidence.

"Pilots in this regiment [890th Guards Long Range Bomber Regiment] had accumulated much experience in flying the American Boeing B-17 Flying Fortress and Consolidated B-24 Liberator heavy bombers, which enabled them to be first service pilots to convert to the Tu-4. The B-24s were widely used for mastering the technique of piloting heavy aircraft with tricycle undercarriage. The regiment catered for training Tu-4 crews until 1955 when the jet-powered Tu-16 began to reach service units."

From Tupolev Tu-4 Soviet Superfortress (Midland, 2002) by Yefim Gordon and Vladimir Rigmant.

Tupolev Tu-4 Superfortress

SaparotRob · Apr 3, 2022

I did not know the VVS flew B-17s.

nuuumannn · Apr 3, 2022

SaparotRob said:
I did not know the VVS flew B-17s.

It isn't well publicised. They were pretty much all captured examples. The US refused to supply the type, and B-24s to the USSR via Lend Lease during the war. Unfortunately there are no photos in the book of the unit's B-17s or B-24s.

SaparotRob · Apr 3, 2022

That answer brings up more questions. Captured B-17s and B-24s? Were they ex-beute machines?

nuuumannn · Apr 3, 2022

SaparotRob said:
That answer brings up more questions. Captured B-17s and B-24s? Were they ex-beute machines?

Good question. there isn't a whole lot that has been published in English about this.

This from wikipedia:

"Late in World War II, RAF and USAAF bombers that had been damaged in raids over the Reich would put down in Soviet-controlled territory rather than try to make it back to Western bases, and in April 1945 the Soviet Air Forces (VVS) issued a directive to its units in the field to report the location of any aircraft of its Western Allies that were in Soviet hands; among the aircraft salvaged were a total of 73 B-17s. The Fortresses that were in the best condition were returned to the USAAF, but a number were retained as interim heavy bombers. Although Russian aircrews and maintenance crews had no experience with such aircraft, the Soviets proved ingenious at keeping them flying, and in fact were delighted with the B-17's handling, comparing it to a "swallow" and the nimble Polikarpov Po-2 biplane trainer. Soviet officials tended to order the "filthy pictures" applied to the aircraft removed or painted out. The B-17s remained in service until 1948, when the Tupolev Tu-4 began to arrive at operational squadrons."

List of Boeing B-17 Flying Fortress operators - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

And this from a Russian source, which is interesting...

B-17 "Flying Fortress" in the USSR

nuuumannn · Apr 3, 2022

Found this page, from the same source on the B-24. Again interesting stuff. It contains the following:

"In 1948, three "Liberators" were sent to Kazan, in the 890 regiment. It was believed that the B-24, with its nose wheel, was more suitable for training Tu-4 crews."

B-24 "Liberator" in the USSR

special ed · Apr 3, 2022

I'm not sure of the source, it may be in one of the books on lend lease, but every aircraft request list Stalin sent included the B-29 which was refused each time.

SaparotRob · Apr 3, 2022

nuuumannn said:
Good question. there isn't a whole lot that has been published in English about this.

This from wikipedia:

"Late in World War II, RAF and USAAF bombers that had been damaged in raids over the Reich would put down in Soviet-controlled territory rather than try to make it back to Western bases, and in April 1945 the Soviet Air Forces (VVS) issued a directive to its units in the field to report the location of any aircraft of its Western Allies that were in Soviet hands; among the aircraft salvaged were a total of 73 B-17s. The Fortresses that were in the best condition were returned to the USAAF, but a number were retained as interim heavy bombers. Although Russian aircrews and maintenance crews had no experience with such aircraft, the Soviets proved ingenious at keeping them flying, and in fact were delighted with the B-17's handling, comparing it to a "swallow" and the nimble Polikarpov Po-2 biplane trainer. Soviet officials tended to order the "filthy pictures" applied to the aircraft removed or painted out. The B-17s remained in service until 1948, when the Tupolev Tu-4 began to arrive at operational squadrons."

List of Boeing B-17 Flying Fortress operators - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

And this from a Russian source, which is interesting...

B-17 "Flying Fortress" in the USSR

Very interesting. I had read about Operation Frantic. I assumed that flyable planes went back home after the attack and the rest were scrap.

nuuumannn · Apr 3, 2022

special ed said:
I'm not sure of the source, it may be in one of the books on lend lease, but every aircraft request list Stalin sent included the B-29 which was refused each time.

Yup, as was has requests for B-17s and B-24s, which were directly blocked by Hap Arnold. The Soviets first learned about the B-29 from Eddie Rickenbacker, who visited the Soviet Union in 1943 on a visit to learn about the Soviet aircraft industry, where he talked of an American "Superbomber". Apparently the Russian that served as his liaison was tasked with loosening his tongue for information, but Rickenbacker was quite talkative, which meant the guy didn't have to work too hard in supplying him with luxuries on his trip, which included a C-47 (not a Lisunov Li-2) fitted with a well-stocked bar!

SaparotRob · Apr 3, 2022

Snautzer01 · Apr 4, 2022

nuuumannn said:
It's not deliberately meant to be aggressive and don't take it personally, snautzer; it's certainly not designed to deliberately upset you. I am pretty direct in person, too and I generally will defend my corner when need be. Don't think of it as an attack on you, I just don't mince words. Conversely, I won't hold back in complementing you in person, too.

Here is your evidence.

"Pilots in this regiment [890th Guards Long Range Bomber Regiment] had accumulated much experience in flying the American Boeing B-17 Flying Fortress and Consolidated B-24 Liberator heavy bombers, which enabled them to be first service pilots to convert to the Tu-4. The B-24s were widely used for mastering the technique of piloting heavy aircraft with tricycle undercarriage. The regiment catered for training Tu-4 crews until 1955 when the jet-powered Tu-16 began to reach service units."

From Tupolev Tu-4 Soviet Superfortress (Midland, 2002) by Yefim Gordon and Vladimir Rigmant.

Tupolev Tu-4 Superfortress

Same as in post #721

nuuumannn · Apr 4, 2022

Snautzer01 said:
Same as in post #721

So, after all that accusing me of being wrong? You, my friend, owe me a beer and then some.

Snautzer01 · Apr 4, 2022

You think so ?

nuuumannn · Apr 4, 2022

Snautzer01 said:
You think so ?

You second guessed me. You even got someone else to tag along, then agreed with them. If you knew, you're being a dick. If you didn't you owe me a beer.

Snautzer01 · Apr 4, 2022

I guesed only once, I do not owe you a beer and my name is not Dick. and thats the last of it.

Valdez · Apr 4, 2022

eBay: Boeing B-17 Flying Fortress

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