eBay: North American P-51 Mustang

[ColFord]

The use of the red dot centred US roundels on Mustang Mk.I destined for delivery to the RAF, was the temporary application of US marking for conduct of test flights within the USA OR for the couple of aircraft retained by NAA for flight test and development work in the USA - these are the ones most often that have shown up in various publications. Also some instances where applied for NAA publicity photographs. Use of US insignia without the red dot centre seen after Japan attacked Pearl Harbor and generally used for flight testing of RAF aircraft over the USA, particuarly US west coast plants, to avoid issues with the red centre section of RAF roundels being mistaken for Japanese national markings. From what we have been able to find for aircraft destined for the RAF, the temporary US markings were placed over the top of the RAF markings for the duration of flight testing and then removed once flight testing completed and aircraft accepted by BPC/RAF representative at the factory. So when they were crated they carried RAF markings. The problem that arose for the Mustang Mk.I and Mk.IA in the UK after arrival with incorrect placement of the fuselage roundel and incorrect sizing of wing top and bottom roundels, was largely overcome as a part of the repainting process required to change the c&m from temperate scheme with early national markings as delivered by NAA, to the then required RAF day fighter scheme with later national markings in use by the time the aircraft shipments arrived in the UK. NAA had not had issues with RAF style roundels on their earlier and subsequent production blocks of Harvards for the RAF and RCAF - bright trainer yellow not being as menacing a camouflage, but there was a period where Harvards did have US markings applied over RAF markings for test flights or delivery flights from NAA factory to Canadian border.

 

[Navalwarrior]

78th Fighter Group P-51 Fighter Planes Lined Up; England 1943

View attachment 380267

Resp:
The 'D' model didn't arriving in England until just before D-Day 1944.

 

[fubar57]

The photo was actually taken at the end of the war for a review. Another angle here...US Army Air Force - 82nd FS,78th FG

 

[Barrett]

The famous Gentile pic reminds me: Pete Regina's B (slash C) model was stabled at the Champlin Fighter Museum here in AZ for some years in the 80s. It was repainted as a postwar racer, sad to relate...but more recently has been 352nd FG's Princess Elizabeth. http://aircraft-in-focus.com/north-american-p-51-mustang/

 

[Snautzer01]

Royal Air Force North American Mustang Mk I over France 8"x 10" WWII Photo 275 | eBay

 

[Navalwarrior]

Royal Air Force North American Mustang Mk I over France 8"x 10" WWII Photo 275 | eBay

View attachment 554343

Resp:
Actually, it is a Mk IA . . since it has the wing mounted 20MM. Beautiful shot though.

 

[Navalwarrior]

The famous Gentile pic reminds me: Pete Regina's B (slash C) model was stabled at the Champlin Fighter Museum here in AZ for some years in the 80s. It was repainted as a postwar racer, sad to relate...but more recently has been 352nd FG's Princess Elizabeth. http://aircraft-in-focus.com/north-american-p-51-mustang/

Resp:
Pete Regina's P-51B was made using a D wing that he 'adjusted' to fit a partial B fuselage. If I remember correctly, he had to fabricate the lattice canopy from drawings/scratch. To my knowledge, his 'B' was the first airworthy razorback Merlin Mustang since the air races of the early '50s. When it was sold and rebuilt as Princess Elizabeth as a P-51C it was rebuilt to this model specifications, which was extensive. Thanks goes to Pete for the resurrection of this beautiful variant.

 

[drgondog]

Resp:
If I remember correctly, there were 555 'H' models produced. None ever saw combat, although P-51H Mustangs were en route to the PTO via ship when the war ended. I often wondered why no 'H' models ever served in Korea. Various US Air National Guard units were still flying D, K and H models. When the allies occupied mainland Japan, about 100 P-51D/Ks were mothballed there when jet fighters began to replace piston engine ones. It was these local Mustangs that were quickly brought back to combat readiness, in the ground support role. Since Mustangs were eventually sent to Korea from the US, I would have thought some 'H' models would have been used. Wing loading not up to par?

Several reasons.
Most important was P-51H still critical long range Air Defense interceptor vs USSR bomber technology. Second - Zero compatibility between the P-51H and P-51D airframes - complicating spares and maintenance issues (P-47N would have been chosen otherwise). Third, the main gear was built to lower structural threshold - and unsuitable for rough Korean airfields. Fourth, the P-51D was there, and a lot more existed in ANG units stateside.

As to 'wing loading', the P-51H was stronger for full combat loads (and much stronger below) as the Structural design target was 7.3/11G at 9600 GW (full internal combat load) while the D was stressed at 8/12G for 8000 GW. At full internal combat loads the D was at 10200 for comparable comparison of 6.3/9.5G for the D and 7.3/11G for the H

 

[drgondog]

Resp:
This aircraft was taken from the Second order for the British. 57 Mustang MkI aircraft were held back just after the attack on Pearl Harbor. The USAAF initially designated them as P-51-1 (& -2), but most were fitted with cameras for the Photo-Recon mission and redesignated as F-6A. Although most if not all kept the black stenciling just forward of the canopy on the left fuselage of 'P-51-1 NA.' Armament retained the four wing mounted 20mm cannon.

Strictly speaking the NA-91 (P-51-NA/Mk.IA) was the 3rd order placed by the BPC on 7-41. The production schedule called for completion of Mustangs in August 1942. Spring 1942 brought parallel streams of orders, beginning with the A-36. When the A-36 order was placed, AAF-HQ decided that RAF Mk.IA WIP needed to be suborned to provide training base for production A-36 pilots and maintainers. At the same time the CAS acolytes that were the power behind the throne to stuff the Mustang down Material Command's throat, also pointed to the Mustang as a far better tactical recon platform than P-40 and P-39 - resulting in the camera mod - then discussion of P-51A in quantity.

The first Photo Recon version of the P-51-NA was tested in August 1942 by Chilton and redesignated P-51-1-NA, then F-6A. All subsequent F-6A conversions were performed at the Memphis Air Depot and designated P-51-2-NA/F-6A. IIRC, some remained 'as is' as P-51-NA and assigned to Training Command. Two, obviously, were pulled for NA-101 in May, 1942 in advance of the NA-101 contract to begin work on the XP-78/XP-51B. Both of those airframes retained P-51-NA on the data block.

What is truly astonishing is that the Merlin conversion was a hoped for success - but NEVER conceived by AAF-HQ leaders as a long-range escort fighter. The primary reason for existence was CAS and battlefield air superiority until July, 1943 when the reality of 8th AF invulnerability was blown wide open successively by Blitz Week losses (first) then followed by August 17 Schweinfurt-Regensburg strike.

 

[drgondog]

Think it is a C model notice lamp in right wing.

The image shown is of P-51B and B-25 at Inglewood. There is zero difference between the P-51B and C for the corresponding blocks (i.e. NA-102 P-51B-1 and P-51C-1). Some changes like the internal 85 gal fuse tanks were somewhat out of synch in P-51B-5/C-5 and subsequent due to insertion difficulties and changes were made to B-5 before C-1 was complete.

 

[drgondog]

Oh yes.. as memo serves that's the another Swiss modification. It was done for the two-seater planes in order to have a better access the second seat .

View attachment 539237

View attachment 539238

the pic source: P-51D-5-NA s/n 44-13710 "Ann I" ...
and ... Swiss Mustangs

Did not originate with Swiss - common to both 8th and 15th AF in 1945. Shown is my father getting ready to take my Ranger uncle for a ride just after VE-Day at Steeple Morden.

 

[drgondog]

Resp:
The AVG never used Mustangs, and when the Flying Tigers received P-51 Mustangs it was well after the the AVG was incorporated (probably not the best term) into USAAF service. The year of Mustang arrivals in the CBI was late 1944, and these may have been Allison engined P-51As. Merlin arrivals . . ?

P-51A/A-36 went operational in CBI October 1943. P-51B went operational at 23rd FG in April 1944.

 

[Airframes]

Great pic Bill.
Karl and I visited Steeple Morden last Monday - some pics in my thread "The Travel's of Tel's Tin Tent".

 

[Navalwarrior]

Strictly speaking the NA-91 (P-51-NA/Mk.IA) was the 3rd order placed by the BPC on 7-41. The production schedule called for completion of Mustangs in August 1942. Spring 1942 brought parallel streams of orders, beginning with the A-36. When the A-36 order was placed, AAF-HQ decided that RAF Mk.IA WIP needed to be suborned to provide training base for production A-36 pilots and maintainers. At the same time the CAS acolytes that were the power behind the throne to stuff the Mustang down Material Command's throat, also pointed to the Mustang as a far better tactical recon platform than P-40 and P-39 - resulting in the camera mod - then discussion of P-51A in quantity.

The first Photo Recon version of the P-51-NA was tested in August 1942 by Chilton and redesignated P-51-1-NA, then F-6A. All subsequent F-6A conversions were performed at the Memphis Air Depot and designated P-51-2-NA/F-6A. IIRC, some remained 'as is' as P-51-NA and assigned to Training Command. Two, obviously, were pulled for NA-101 in May, 1942 in advance of the NA-101 contract to begin work on the XP-78/XP-51B. Both of those airframes retained P-51-NA on the data block.

What is truly astonishing is that the Merlin conversion was a hoped for success - but NEVER conceived by AAF-HQ leaders as a long-range escort fighter. The primary reason for existence was CAS and battlefield air superiority until July, 1943 when the reality of 8th AF invulnerability was blown wide open successively by Blitz Week losses (first) then followed by August 17 Schweinfurt-Regensburg strike.

Resp:
The USAAC's 1939 prohibition against manufacturers incorporating external fuel stores (drop tanks) set the stage for days like the Schweinfurt-Ragensburg disasters. Fortunately, Gen Hap Arnold in 1941/42 time frame looked the other way when subordinates started using the term 'ferry tanks' to get fighters to distant places when they were actually mixing the two different terms/usages. Engineers at Lockheed, at the insistence of their P-38 test pilot, incorporated the ability to carry 'drop tanks' in spite of the contract restriction; the P-38F coming off the production line just before Pearl Harbor. P-47Cs and Ds had to be retro fitted in England in late 1943 just to carry one 75 gallon tank. Greater capacity tanks eventually arrived, and in early 1944 wing pylon P-47s began to arrive, but the damage had been done.

 

[drgondog]

Love these cross sectional views!
View attachment 548630

Looks like a hybrid - A-36 Cowl, P-51A/B wing including Pitot tube, indeterminate Radiator. The A-36 had the established Donut, radiator and the P-51A had a Horse shoe shape.

 

[drgondog]

Resp:
The USAAC's 1939 prohibition against manufacturers incorporating external fuel stores (drop tanks) set the stage for days like the Schweinfurt-Ragensburg disasters. Fortunately, Gen Hap Arnold in 1941/42 time frame looked the other way when subordinates started using the term 'ferry tanks' to get fighters to distant places when they were actually mixing the two different terms/usages. Engineers at Lockheed, at the insistence of their P-38 test pilot, incorporated the ability to carry 'drop tanks' in spite of the contract restriction; the P-38F coming off the production line just before Pearl Harbor. P-47Cs and Ds had to be retro fitted in England in late 1943 just to carry one 75 gallon tank. Greater capacity tanks eventually arrived, and in early 1944 wing pylon P-47s began to arrive, but the damage had been done.

Kelsey at Wright and Branshaw on-site collaborated with Lockheed to incorporate the plumbing and rack designs as kits for the P-38E, with the production release in P-38F (early block but not #1) in April 1942 timeframe. The F-4s went to Australia in April 1942 had the kits installed and equipped to hold either the 165 or 310 gallon Ferry tanks made in Australia.

The first stage in the mods for the P-47C/D by VIII ATC was to a.) install the keel, then b.) rack to carry either 1000 pound bomb or projected 75 and 110 gallon centerline tanks, then c.) the MUCH more labor intensive major Depot mods for the wing rack and plumbing and slaving pressurization to instrument vacuum pump.

The Production incorporation of wing/CL tanks occurred on the P-47D-11 arriving approximately March, 1944 but enough mods were delivered to 56th FG to go past Dummer Lake on the Berlin missions.

The Genesis of the change in philosophy from Ferry only to Combat tanks started in Fighter Conference Arnold hosted in Feb 1942, but slow to get through Material Command. The first long (er) missions with ferry tanks started in SW Pacific courtesy of Pappy Gunn and innovative Aussie tank makers for P-47s. They weren't getting any P-38s with the ETO, then North Africa campaigns in the planning phase as the P-47Cs were rolling out. The push for greater internal fuel capacity went into high gear in June, 1943.

 

[MIflyer]

The cutaway is a Mustang Mk 1, with .50 cal cowl guns and three guns in each wing, as well as the early front moveable lip for the belly airscoop

 

[Navalwarrior]

Kelsey at Wright and Branshaw on-site collaborated with Lockheed to incorporate the plumbing and rack designs as kits for the P-38E, with the production release in P-38F (early block but not #1) in April 1942 timeframe. The F-4s went to Australia in April 1942 had the kits installed and equipped to hold either the 165 or 310 gallon Ferry tanks made in Australia.

The first stage in the mods for the P-47C/D by VIII ATC was to a.) install the keel, then b.) rack to carry either 1000 pound bomb or projected 75 and 110 gallon centerline tanks, then c.) the MUCH more labor intensive major Depot mods for the wing rack and plumbing and slaving pressurization to instrument vacuum pump.

The Production incorporation of wing/CL tanks occurred on the P-47D-11 arriving approximately March, 1944 but enough mods were delivered to 56th FG to go past Dummer Lake on the Berlin missions.

The Genesis of the change in philosophy from Ferry only to Combat tanks started in Fighter Conference Arnold hosted in Feb 1942, but slow to get through Material Command. The first long (er) missions with ferry tanks started in SW Pacific courtesy of Pappy Gunn and innovative Aussie tank makers for P-47s. They weren't getting any P-38s with the ETO, then North Africa campaigns in the planning phase as the P-47Cs were rolling out. The push for greater internal fuel capacity went into high gear in June, 1943.

Resp:
Exactly. You covered it all in a nutshell. When Gen Kenney was told @ June 1943 that he would no longer receive long range P-38s, but non drop tank capable P-47s, he had his engineer draw up specifications for a flat 200 (or was it 250?) gal belly tank, getting Ford Motor Co of Australia to make them. 60 days later their P-47s flew a long range escort mission! What did ETO US 8th AF Commander Gen. Eaker do? He failed to confirm an order to make drop tanks with the British (after meeting w them), so cancels an earlier US order for drop tanks! Crazy!!

 

[drgondog]

USS Altamahha transporting P51A Mustangs Out Of San Francisco Bay. WW2 | eBay

View attachment 553160

Headed for CBI.

 

[Navalwarrior]

The cutaway is a Mustang Mk 1, with .50 cal cowl guns and three guns in each wing, as well as the early front moveable lip for the belly airscoop
View attachment 554405View attachment 554406View attachment 554407View attachment 554408

Resp:
The ad is dated June 1943 and specifies the Mustang as a Mk I. I believe this was around the time the A-36A was being produced at NAA.