eBay: North American P-51 Mustang
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Navalwarrior
Staff Sergeant
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- Jun 17, 2018
Resp:
Another view of an earlier posted Mustang w dorsal fin.
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Snautzer01
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Navalwarrior
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Snautzer01
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Or a new paintjob perhaps. Shiny new teeth would be a reason for me to pose.
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Crimea_River
Marshal
I'd rather know what the contraption is just to the left of the landing light.
Neat shot - I just won it on eBay. Looks like the underwing mounting bracket for the bazooka tubes. More important for me, I think this is the 16th FS (51st FG) - a unit I seen only one other photo of!
Cheers,
Dana
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Navalwarrior
Staff Sergeant
- 764
- Jun 17, 2018
Resp:
I also noticed it. A field mod?
A question: Anyone know how many different P-51s the Maj George Preddy flew? He flew P-40s against the Japanese, and initially a P-47 in the ETO . . . but what about his P-51s? I have seen a painting of his P-51B and a photo of his P-51D-5-NA. Did his -5-NA receive a field 'dorsal fin,' or were there separate 'Cripes A'Mighty?'
Specifically 16th FS or 51st FG in general?
Photo by Alan Dugdale
Photo by Alan Dugdale
P-51B Mustang 261of the 26th FS 51st Fighter Group | World War Photos
Photo by Alan Dugdale
P-51B Mustang 51st Fighter Group shark mouth 43-7058 | World War Photos
P-51 51st FG 16th FS | World War Photos
Forums / USAAF / USN Library / 51st Fighter Group - Axis and Allies Paintworks
Photo by Alan Dugdale
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Hi Alan,
Yeah, specifically the 16th FS with Mustangs. There are tons of pix of the 51st, but I've only seen one other image of the 16th's P-51 striped tail markings. I'm not sure why there were so few pix.
I used to manage the USAF's WWII still photo collection and spent a couple of years putting all the pieces back together - there was only one photo there of a 16th P-51.
Cheers,
Dana
Yeah, specifically the 16th FS with Mustangs. There are tons of pix of the 51st, but I've only seen one other image of the 16th's P-51 striped tail markings. I'm not sure why there were so few pix.
I used to manage the USAF's WWII still photo collection and spent a couple of years putting all the pieces back together - there was only one photo there of a 16th P-51.
Cheers,
Dana
drgondog
Major
AAF sorted out the confusion created when the first P-51-1-NA was converted to photo recon and often referred to as F-6A. In 1944 the AAF referred to it as F-6, P-51A as F-6A, P-51B as F-6B and P-51C as F-6C.
Other naming conventions existed such as Depot modified P-51B-5 as P-51B-6. In short it was a mess. Bob Bourlier has done yeoman's work in sorting these out but it was chaos in 1943/early 1944
Navalwarrior
Staff Sergeant
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- Jun 17, 2018
Resp:
I am afraid the transition of Letters didn't follow. The breakdown is as follows:
- Held back Mustang MkIA by USAAF (after Pearl Harbor) initially became P-51-1 (as well as -2 and a few -3), the again redesignated as F-6A when retro fitted with cameras (however, all retained black stenciling 'P-51-1' under cockpit on left fuselage just forward of cockpit).
- P-51A Mustangs, most were also fitted with cameras were redesignated as F-6B, lettering was again left as
'P-51A' on fuselage.
- P-51B and P-51C fitted with cameras became F-6C
- P-51D fitted with cameras became F-6D
- P-51K fitted with camera became F-6K
Sorry
If the USAAF had 'lettered' the held back RAF Mustang MkIA for the US and redesignated these first Mustnags entering service with an 'A' after P-51 instead of just '-1' it may have prevented much of this discussion. But knowing the history of the USAAC/USAAF I kind of doubt it. I have searched unit websites of WWII USAAF units and have found photos of Allison engined Mustangs 'labeled' P-51B, as one example.
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fubar57
General
LOL
drgondog
Major
Many variations in field terminology existed. That said here are a few digs from friend Bob Bourlier who has pried the lid from the F-6A, P-51A-11, F-6b and F-6C mess.
Start with the Mission assignments in CBI for 160 recon. Look carefully at the serial numbers. The 43-6xxx P-51B-5 are from contract AC 30479 which originally was the foundation contract for the P-51A. When the P-51A-11 was converted Recon, it was initially designated F-6B s the F-6A was still operational in MTO and CBI. The initial P-51B-1 and -5 were designated F-6C, but even the AAF-MC realized they had a confusing mess when the P-51C was so modified at the same time the first recon Ds were converted.. I will post the MC document explaining the different recon models in the next post after the few P-51-1/F-6A were all gone. From that time all P-51B (-1 through -15) recon versions were designated as F-6B, and all P-51C remained F-6C
fubar57
General
Thank you very much for that
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Snautzer01
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And i thought only the Germans messed up there airplane codings. Bloody amateurs compared to this.
drgondog
Major
To continue - The Recon table as defined below was dated mid 1944 but I can't find the preceding page. Note the unusual absence of discussion about P-51A-11 "F6" designation. To help muddy up the waters the AC 30479 contract covered P-51A through 310 ships, continued into P-51B (NA-104) for -5 through -15, then extended to cover NA-106 to build the P-51D. The latter was originally set for 600 P-51D with birdcage canopy/six gun wing - but scaled to two ships, then re-distributed in summer 1943, along with NA-107, into AC 40063 (NA-109 P-51D-5 through -15 NT at Inglewood) and AC 40064 (NA-111 P-51C-10 NT and P-51D/K and P-51D-20NT). All these contracts were let from June 42 to May 1943 and the list ends with P-51C-10 NT and P-51D-5 NA with no mention of P-51D-10 or P-51D-5 NT or P-51K-1 NT which were delivered after August 1944
All pointing to presented difference in which P-51B-5 thru -15 NA as F-6B-1 (noted in comments as "similar to P-51A" but Merlin engine) BUT the earlier P-51B-1 was designated at this time as F-6C-1-NA then follow with P-51C-1 NT as F-6C-1-NT. Clearly some crossover in mid 1944
Continue to the second Table with mixture of MACR/accident reports. Note that in the 'type reported' column for the dates Dec 1943 through early May 1944 that the P-51 was referred as only P-51 in the MACR - not F-6A.
Note beginning in May, the MACR referred to P-51A as P-51A and P-51A-11, then thereafter as F-6A. Sometime in mid to late 1944 the AAF-MC issued a series of documents (including the one that designated all NAA fighters in AAF service to be referred to as Mustangs (including P-51 and A-36). It was this block of docs that finally sorted F-6A=P-51A, F-6B=P-51B, F-6C=P-51C; F-6D=P-51D, F-6K=P-51K.
Bob Bourlier has done an excellent job of research into Recon Mustangs and most of this data is sourced through him.
All pointing to presented difference in which P-51B-5 thru -15 NA as F-6B-1 (noted in comments as "similar to P-51A" but Merlin engine) BUT the earlier P-51B-1 was designated at this time as F-6C-1-NA then follow with P-51C-1 NT as F-6C-1-NT. Clearly some crossover in mid 1944
Continue to the second Table with mixture of MACR/accident reports. Note that in the 'type reported' column for the dates Dec 1943 through early May 1944 that the P-51 was referred as only P-51 in the MACR - not F-6A.
Note beginning in May, the MACR referred to P-51A as P-51A and P-51A-11, then thereafter as F-6A. Sometime in mid to late 1944 the AAF-MC issued a series of documents (including the one that designated all NAA fighters in AAF service to be referred to as Mustangs (including P-51 and A-36). It was this block of docs that finally sorted F-6A=P-51A, F-6B=P-51B, F-6C=P-51C; F-6D=P-51D, F-6K=P-51K.
Bob Bourlier has done an excellent job of research into Recon Mustangs and most of this data is sourced through him.
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Navalwarrior
Staff Sergeant
- 764
- Jun 17, 2018
Navalwarrior
Staff Sergeant
- 764
- Jun 17, 2018
Resp:
Thanks drgondog. I am still skeptical. It is food for thought. My two sources are Aircraft of World War II, Amber Books, UK, 2017 and Allison-Engined P-51 Mustang, by Martyn Chorlto, Osprey Ltd, 2012. The British are meticulous in their research, hence the reason we used JANES for combat ship identification.
Thanks drgondog. I am still skeptical. It is food for thought. My two sources are Aircraft of World War II, Amber Books, UK, 2017 and Allison-Engined P-51 Mustang, by Martyn Chorlto, Osprey Ltd, 2012. The British are meticulous in their research, hence the reason we used JANES for combat ship identification.
