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The lore and record trail of the Mustang recon ships in the service of the US is tortuous - ditto the RAF mods, for which I owe Colin Ford a great deal for his contribution to my new book (with Lowell Ford).Resp:
Thanks drgondog. I am still skeptical. It is food for thought. My two sources are Aircraft of World War II, Amber Books, UK, 2017 and Allison-Engined P-51 Mustang, by Martyn Chorlto, Osprey Ltd, 2012. The British are meticulous in their research, hence the reason we used JANES for combat ship identification.
Resp:The lore and record trail of the Mustang recon ships in the service of the US is tortuous - ditto the RAF mods, for which I owe Colin Ford a great deal for his contribution to my new book (with Lowell Ford).
FWIIW the MACRs are the defining docs because they serial numbers and dash number description are sourced with the Engineering Office of each unit and explicitly extracted from the form 1 and 65 (IIRC), NOT the data block.
Lol - well get your pencil ready, I already sent in a request to Osprey to insert an 'erata' sheet for some missed serial numbers and slightly 'off' dates.Resp:
I want a copy of your new book on the Mustang! To some degree, the numerous errors makes the hunt for accuracy of the Mustang variants that much more enjoyable. I too saw errors in Chorlton's book. I penciled in corrective notes in those cases.
Resp:Lol - well get your pencil ready, I already sent in a request to Osprey to insert an 'erata' sheet for some missed serial numbers and slightly 'off' dates.
Resp:
Roger. LOL!
The following is from: Rickard, J (7 June 2007) North American F-6 Mustang, http://www.historyofwar.org/articlesofwar.org/articles/weapons_F-5_Mustang.html
F-6A based on P-51 55
F-6B based on P-51A. 35
F-6C-NA based on P-51B. 71
F-6C-NT based on P-51C 20
F-6D based on P-51D-NT 136
F-6K based on P-51K. 164
Just so you know I am not making this stuff up. LOL!
I know that. In my latest book, I ignored many publications on Mustangs simply because they repeated many errors by previous authors. That list was 'true' on or about April/May 1944. That said, examination of MACRs and Mission Planning docs would have given Rickard food for thought to dig deeper than the AAF-MC documents that are most commonly used - and which I presented to you above,Resp:
Roger. LOL!
The following is from: Rickard, J (7 June 2007) North American F-6 Mustang, http://www.historyofwar.org/articlesofwar.org/articles/weapons_F-5_Mustang.html
F-6A based on P-51 55
F-6B based on P-51A. 35
F-6C-NA based on P-51B. 71
F-6C-NT based on P-51C 20
F-6D based on P-51D-NT 136
F-6K based on P-51K. 164
Just so you know I am not making this stuff up. LOL!
Resp:I know that. In my latest book, I ignored many publications on Mustangs simply because they repeated many errors by previous authors. That list was 'true' on or about April/May 1944. That said, examination of MACRs and Mission Planning docs would have given Rickard food for thought to dig deeper than the AAF-MC documents that are most commonly used - and which I presented to you above,
Resp:Well the guy who runs that site, I don't know where he gets his "facts" from, but it contains so much incorrect information on the Mustang it is laughable. As an example to quote just one little bit about the Mustang Mk.I he states:
The first RAF squadron to receive the Mustang was No. 2, which received the new aircraft in April 1942. The first operational sortie, an attack on a German airbase in France, took place on 10 May 1942. A more significant first came on 27 July, when Mustang Is of No. 2 Squadron became the first single engined allied fighter aircraft to enter German airspace since the French campaign of 1940. Their mission was an attack on targets in the Ruhr.
No.26 Squadron RAF was the first RAF Squadron to receive the Mustang Mk.I and use them operationally.
Sortie by No.2 Squadron RAF of 27 July 1942 - never happened.
First sortie by RAF Mustang Mk.I over western Germany was on 21 October 1942 and was conducted by 4 x Mustang Mk.I aircraft of No.268 Squadron RAF into the area of the Dortmund-Ems Canal, well to the north of the Ruhr.
Re the F-6 numbers, he has noted in an update that Robert Bourlier has identified significantly higher numbers modified to those in the table he provides, but has not updated the table. Also he does not anywhere in any of his precis about various aircraft types, cite his sources for the information he posts up on his site.
So not the best authoratative or factually correct site to rely on.
Resp:
I will wait for your book. Please finish it soon. Thanks.
Just FYI: The Yanks Air Museum of Chino, CA lists their Allison engined P-51A in the write up as "The only surviving F-6B of the 35 modified."
XP-78 was accepted as of May 1942 when the paperwork for NA-101 was negotiated to install the Merlin (unspecified whether 1650-1 or -3 at that time. Between the time NA-101 was executed in July and NA-102 P-51B-1 contract in late August, the name was formally changed by Materiel Command and the decision to install the Merlin 61 was made. It was also at this time that the NA-99 P-51A contract could cancelled and balance of 1200 a/c be switched to NA-104 P-51B-5But wait, there's more...
I just dug out the 28 July 1942 Wright Field memo asking to use the designation XP-78-NA for the "new" North American Fighter, Interceptor. Washington responded on 20 August:
Classification as Experimental is approved for the P-51 Airplane with Packard Rolls-Royce Merlin 61 engine installed. It is most desirable that the production airplane be given a model designation which will definitely identify it as one of the P-51 series. Although the different engine definitely changes the performance of the airplane, it will still remain basically a P-51. Due to the work which the British are carrying on with this airplane and engine, and the very optimistic view of the project held by Materiel Command, the classification Limited Procurement might well apply and is hereby approved provided the airplane be called P-51 with an appropriate suffix added.
By command of Lieutenant General Arnold.
That doesn't clarify just why the P-78 designation wasn't accepted, but at least we know who made the decision.
Cheers (again),
Dana
Okay, so the F4U-1A was a designation that was created by Chance Vought itself, but ended up in official use through some kind of osmosis? I'm guessing F4U-1B was for British, as it wasn't official but also internal.Designations are a pain in the butt, and the more time I spend in the Archives (will they ever reopen?) the more I find revisions to what we all "know" to be true.
So that just leaves F4U-1 (birdcage), F4U-1A (non-birdcage), F4U-1B (special armament)?The cannon-armed -4s became F4U-4Cs until 1946 when the Navy decided that the "B" suffix would be used for special armament mods and all the F4U-1Cs became F4U-1Bs.
The photo-recon designations (F) were a pain in the ass. It was just a hodge-podge group of fighters and bombers that were used as reconnaissance birds (except the XF-11 and XF-12). To make it more interesting the P-38 had two designations (F-4 & F-5).The Army was just as bad.
I thought the wing position was needed to be moved forward and down for the Merlin 60's to work? Did the original plan call for the Merlin 28 in the B?One Mustang document that might be of interest here relates to the original P-51B and P-51C designations. The addition of the Merlin engine led to some aerodynamic concerns and minor repositioning of the wing. The P-51B was originally to be produced with the Merlin, but without the repositioned wing; the new wing was planned for the P-51C. Obviously, both models went into production with the repositioned wing, but I've never seen the original designations explained in any of the many Mustang books.
Okay, so the F4U-1A was a designation that was created by Chance Vought itself, but ended up in official use through some kind of osmosis? I'm guessing F4U-1B was for British, as it wasn't official but also internal.
Osmosis? Yes. It also turned up in manuals, but Vought wrote the manuals. And the B was for British.
From what I remember, the USN used the -C as sub-variant indicating cannon armament. Did the USN have a -D designation?
So that just leaves F4U-1 (birdcage), F4U-1A (non-birdcage), F4U-1B (special armament)?
Mistake/Typo on my part. My note said the F4U-1C became the F4U-1B in 1946 - I meant to type that the F4U-4C became the F4U-4B. Back to the F4U-1s, the -1 and -1B were Vought designations, the -1C was the cannon-armed version (regardless of which aircraft the cannons were mounted in). The Navy used the -1D to designate the aircraft with two pylons because to call those aircraft -1As or -1Bs would have resulted in major confusion inside the Vought plant.
The photo-recon designations (F) were a pain in the ass. It was just a hodge-podge group of fighters and bombers that were used as reconnaissance birds (except the XF-11 and XF-12). To make it more interesting the P-38 had two designations (F-4 & F-5).
I've never found the paperwork explaining why the F-5A designation was assigned - F-4B would have made more sense. I see two possibilities - (1) F-4s were built as such by Lockheed, while F-5s were converted from P38s or (2) F-4 cameras were laid out for recon, while F-5 cameras could also do mapping. Just guesses, but I'd love to find proof of either...
I didn't know some B-17, B-24, and P-51 variants flew without an "F" designation.
I thought the wing position was needed to be moved forward and down for the Merlin 60's to work? Did the original plan call for the Merlin 28 in the B?
Okay, that makes a lot of sense.Dana Bell said:Osmosis? Yes. It also turned up in manuals, but Vought wrote the manuals. And the B was for British.
So, it means it was capable of carrying cannon if need be?Back to the F4U-1s, the -1 and -1B were Vought designations, the -1C was the cannon-armed version (regardless of which aircraft the cannons were mounted in).
So the -D model was created to differentiate it from the corporate F4U-1A/B, and the USN's F4U-1C? It's interesting how convoluted things can get.The Navy used the -1D to designate the aircraft with two pylons because to call those aircraft -1As or -1Bs would have resulted in major confusion inside the Vought plant.
That's an interesting point, but I figure whether modified or converted you could just use a different letter regardless.I've never found the paperwork explaining why the F-5A designation was assigned - F-4B would have made more sense. I see two possibilities - (1) F-4s were built as such by Lockheed, while F-5s were converted from P38s or (2) F-4 cameras were laid out for recon, while F-5 cameras could also do mapping. Just guesses, but I'd love to find proof of either...
Makes sense to me, unless time starts flowing backwards.I'm not sure how far the plans for a Merlin 28 Mustang went, but clearly there had to have been some sort of a plan for the plan to be abandoned.
I thunk I know where some of that info came from. William Green's little book on fighters Vol 4 says that No 2 Sqdrn RAF was the first to operate the Mustang MKI, getting them in April 1942 and the first sortie being 27 Jul. It also says that in Oct 1942 the Mustang MKI first penetrated the German border with a raid on the Dortmund-Ems Canal.
"ColFord, that is the 'rub' we all are experiencing . . . lack of accurate info. I am not dreaming up what I am seeing (20+ years of searching) and do not expect this situation to fade any time soon. I do appreciate your comments and the work you and drgondog are doing. I am also a fan of the F4U Corsair. Most authorities believe that the -1A was never used to denote the F4U-1A variant. But I have found USMC maintenance forms dated 1944 with the designation F4U-1A at the top of the form. So, I am careful to never say 'never!'
So my question is, who and why has used the designation F-6B, etc to denote a Photo-Recon converted Mustang P-51A? Is in an inappropriate extrapolation?"
Designations are a pain in the butt, and the more time I spend in the Archives (will they ever reopen?) the more I find revisions to what we all "know" to be true.
With -1 Corsairs, the BuAer had intended to revise all Birdcage Corsairs to raised cockpit standards and denied Vought permission to use a new designation "-1A" to differentiate the original cockpit from the raised cockpit. However, Vought received permission to use "-1A" in company records to clarify which drawings went with the revised cockpit. The original Birdcages were clapped out by the time the "-1A" started reaching units -- not worth the cost of revision -- so the Vought designation came into common (but not official) use.
Similarly, Vought used the F4U-1B designation for internal records on Brit-modified Corsairs. Then came the question of designations for British -1As - Vought wondered if they should be F4U-1ABs or F4U-1BAs. BuAer cried Nonsense! and reminded Vought that none of these designations was official.
To avoid further internal confusion, the cannon-armed modifications became -1Cs and the twin-pylon mods became -1Ds. The cannon-armed -4s became F4U-4Cs until 1946 when the Navy decided that the "B" suffix would be used for special armament mods and all the F4U-1Cs became F4U-1Bs.
TYPO!!! I should have types that the F4U-4Cs were redesignated F4U-4Bs More below...
The Army was just as bad. The "F-xx" designations originally went for mapping aircraft, but most early war mapping aircraft (such as 1942 versions of the mapping B-17s and B-24s) were not redesignated. Likewise, the tac recon Mustangs flew under their respective P-51 designations. Somewhere along the line headquarters decided to go back and "correct" that oversight. I found some correspondence on this, but never filed it in my Mustang files. (I've a six-foot stack of papers that I'm slowly working my way through, but I didn't really retire to become a file clerk in my own basement!)
One Mustang document that might be of interest here relates to the original P-51B and P-51C designations. The addition of the Merlin engine led to some aerodynamic concerns and minor repositioning of the wing. The P-51B was originally to be produced with the Merlin, but without the repositioned wing; the new wing was planned for the P-51C. Obviously, both models went into production with the repositioned wing, but I've never seen the original designations explained in any of the many Mustang books.
Then there's my all-time favorite Wright Field inter-office memo on the P-51, dated 28 August 1942. It doesn't relate directly to designations, but I'll drop it in here in its entirety:
Left by Alec Burton together with the dope on the Griffin 61, this date. "Dutch" Kindleberger says the Merlin 28 is out for installation in the P-51, but they are going full blast on the Merlin 61. About all the re-design necessary is to move the wing forward 3 inches and down 1 inch; also, the nose will be dropped a little to give better visibility than in the P-51.
If the aerodynamics isn't ruined, looks like they might have a pretty good airplane.
That one should be in the dictionary next to "understatement...
Cheers,
Dana