eBay: North American P-51 Mustang

[drgondog]

Neat shot - I just won it on eBay. Looks like the underwing mounting bracket for the bazooka tubes. More important for me, I think this is the 16th FS (51st FG) - a unit I seen only one other photo of!

Cheers,



Dana

looks like a variation of MX241 Rocket Bazooka type) system, first installed on P-51D-1-NA 42-106540 at CalTech circa Feb 1944. P-51B inst'l was on 43-7113 IIRC in late March and kits were sent to CBI in July for both P-51B/C and D. Very inaccurate. Reminds of Huey gunship wrt accuracy. Rocket fins were frequently bent and required care pre-flight to at least straightn them out.

 

[drgondog]

But wait, there's more...

I just dug out the 28 July 1942 Wright Field memo asking to use the designation XP-78-NA for the "new" North American Fighter, Interceptor. Washington responded on 20 August:

Classification as Experimental is approved for the P-51 Airplane with Packard Rolls-Royce Merlin 61 engine installed. It is most desirable that the production airplane be given a model designation which will definitely identify it as one of the P-51 series. Although the different engine definitely changes the performance of the airplane, it will still remain basically a P-51. Due to the work which the British are carrying on with this airplane and engine, and the very optimistic view of the project held by Materiel Command, the classification Limited Procurement might well apply and is hereby approved provided the airplane be called P-51 with an appropriate suffix added.

By command of Lieutenant General Arnold.

That doesn't clarify just why the P-78 designation wasn't accepted, but at least we know who made the decision.

Cheers (again),


Dana

Interesting to speculate. Some pertinent facts include Arnold had a high level briefing from Abassadore Winant, Col. Hitchcock, Portal, Sholto, Linnell on June 4th regarding the importance the RAF placed on the Merlin engined Mustang. Asst Secy War Lovett advised by letter of the importance , requesting highest priority for Packard delivery of Merlin 61 series to NAA. IIRC Echols visited Hucknall to 'look around' circa August 26-27 and not long after issued a Priority A-1 for the production deliveries to NAA of the 1650-3.

Curious, because I know you are right about the above request to use XP-78, that Chidlaw was still using designation of XP-78 as late as September, 1942 in his corespondence exchange with General Lyons regarding performance estimates.

As to the Why, the Griffon powered Spitfire was also an example where the airframe was given a model change, Ditto the XP-51F/G/J and H which were essentially new airframes with few interchangable (and minor) parts.

OTOH the 2s/2s Allison engined P-63 WAS re-designated, with fewer changes to the airframe from P-39 compared to XP-51J from P-51A.

Who knows....

 

[drgondog]

Sure did. Notably, camera-armed P-39s, P-40s, and P-47s never received "F-" designations. I'm not sure how far the plans for a Merlin 28 Mustang went, but clearly there had to have been some sort of a plan for the plan to be abandoned.

Cheers,



Dana

Dana - The P-40F and P-39 were at the end of their trail as far as upgrade considerations, save the P-63.

As for the P-51, Kindelberger and Atwood were very firm in their support for the 61 vs 28, and Arnold agreed the logic for betting on high altitude version. The AAF had at least some experience with P-40F/L Merlin 28 Conversion and the fact that it never offered escort potential for AAF Heavy bomber doctrine. Arnold was also very clear on his preference as recorded in the published notes of conversation between Chidlaw and K.B. Wolfe of June 8, 1942. It was clear who was "the Boss" was in the conversion re: Merlin 28 vs Merlin 61. Chidlaw and Wolfe were still dbating P-51A vs 500 more A-36s when the conversion questions was discussed between them for the Merlin upgrade..

 

[drgondog]

Original WWII Snapshot Photo - P-51 With Nose Art at 42nd Air Depot | eBay

View attachment 587269

78th FG circa Sept 1945, at 42nd AD, 9th AF. 8th AF had departed ~July 1945 for Okinawa ad 9th AF had absorbed 20th, 355th and 357th FG for occupational duty. All other VIII FC, including 78th (personnel) departed England in that timeframe.

 

[drgondog]

The modifications included:

• "Fin Fillet Extension" which enhanced low-speed operation.
• Tail hook (for obvious reasons)
• Catapult hook
• High pressure tires
• Higher pressure in the shock absorbers
• Reinforced airframeThe modified P-51D started testing in September of 1944 under test pilot Robert Elder. The tests were carried out at Mustin Field in Phillidelphia on a modified runway fitted with a catapult and arresting cables. Throughout September 1944 to October 1944, 150 launches and recoveries were made on this modified runway. One big concern was that the aircraft would need to land around 90mph and the stall speed was 82mph, not much of a margin.In late October 1944 the next stage of testing started, carrier landings/launches at sea. Lt. Elder made all the carrier landings at 85mph and was pleased with its handling characteristics, but there were issues:
• • Stall speed margin was extremely low, too low for safety
  • Rudder control at low speed and high angles of attack was inadequate
  • Landing attitude had to be very carefully controlled to avoid airframe damage
  • Go-arounds required slow throttle advancement. The extreme power of the Packard/Merlin engine meant that a high-power fast throttle advancement could put the aircraft into a roll or snap-roll. At low speeds this would prove a fatal mistake.
• Only 25 launches/recoveries were made in the suitability trials and Lt. Elder did not believe that the Mustang had a place in carrier operations.
  It was a moot point anyway. By early 1945 Okinawa and Iwo Jima were won by the allied forces. Each island had airfields that were taken over and provided a close base of operations for aerial attacks on Japan. In August 1945 Japan announced its surrender and it was official September 2, 1945. The P-51 wasn't required to be used from a naval platform anymore.
  The project wasn't forgotten though. North American presented the NAA-133 based on the P-51H, which was a carrier operations "Mustang". It didn't go any further than the design stage though. In 1947 a P-51H was acquired to test new catapult equipment. Either way the war was over by that time and we didn't have to put any more effort into modifying the aircraft for carrier operations.
• Mustang! - Documents

John - the article propagated a common misconception that the P-51H was 'more fragile' than the B/D. That is not true, save that the landing gear load for Limit Stress Loads was lower. Otherwise the P-51H was designed for 7.5G Limit and 11.25 Ultimate at 9600 pounds , full internal combat load Gross Weight. That figure however was for a full loadout of internal stores - 255g fuel, 200 pound pilot, full oil, full ammo. The P-51D was stressed for 8G Limit/12G Ultimate at 8,000 pounds -----> at 9600, which is Not full Gross Weight loadout internal, the Limit load = 6.66G, and at 10200 for normal fully loaded internal = 6.27 G Limit.

Extrapolating relative strenghs shows that at full internal combat load, the P-51H was about 20% more robust than the P-51D.

 

[drgondog]

Original WWII Snapshot Photo - P-51 With Nose Art at Ausbach, Germany | eBay

Baugher; 44-73105 (MSN 122-39564) to Italian AF as MM4293

View attachment 591519

Former 20th FG, VIII FC. Sold to Italy in 1946'ish

 

[drgondog]

Cool. I never liked the looks of the "H" model

My father liked the H best of all. Said it restored the handling charcteristics of the P-51B-1 before the DF and Reverse Rudder Bost tab and 85g tank degraded the later B/C and D, enabled same turn but better roll with larger aileron, even thoughthe throw angle was reduced back to 10 degrees. Then there was the greatly enhanced speed and climb 'thangy' with W/I - but he never ran it to 90in.

With the 13 inch extension in aft fuselage and 50 gal fuse tank there was never an aft cg problem and takeoffs were more benign witha full external load.

 

[drgondog]

I solved a bit of a puzzle. From Spitfires & Yellow Tail Mustangs: The U.S. 52nd Fighter Group in WWII Tom Ivie, Paul Ludwig


View attachment 595381

*WWII photo- P 51 Mustang Fighter plane Nose Art - ID'D Pilot- JERSEY HORSE?* | eBay

It was coded WD*

View attachment 595382

and from ealier eBay North American P-51 Mustang
View attachment 595387

Jersey Bounce could be 357FS/355FG 44-15595 OS-A at Gablingen circa 1946 before move to Augsburg.

 

[drgondog]

That D-Day P-51 looks remarkably like a Spitfire PR.XI !!!!

Because it is a Spitty - as you knew.

 

[drgondog]

*PHOTO* 8th AF P-51B Mustang Nose Art - 358th FS 355th FG ETO - Original Print | eBay

View attachment 610784

358FS/355FG YF-O Morphine Sue, 43-6815. Crashed on take off 9-10-44, Salvaged

 

[Snautzer01]

358FS/355FG YF-O Morphine Sue, 43-6815. Crashed on take off 9-10-44, Salvaged

Why does it say bo-mc on the hood?

 

[drgondog]

*PHOTO* P-51 (44-14245) "Floogie II" Crash Landed ~ 357th FG ~ Excellent | eBay

Baugher: North American P-51D-10-NA (362nd FS, 357th FG, "Floogie II") crashed from unknown cause 3 mi E of RAF Woodridge, Suffolk, England while returning from bomber escort mission Jan 13, 1945. Pilot killed

44-14245 | American Air Museum in Britain

G4-P after belly landing. Floogie II, 44-14245 23 Dec 44 Lt. Jenkins. Coolant shutters inoperable 357th FG New Photos

Otto D Jenkins | American Air Museum in Britain


View attachment 613496

View attachment 613497

Jenkins KIA on March 24, 1945. eturning from last mission, 2nd tour - buzzed field in G4-X 44-63199 "Toolin Fool'
s Revenge"

 

[drgondog]

*PHOTO* P-51 (41-4799) "Susan B. III - Penny" 358th F.S. ETO - Original 8x10 | eBay
Baugher: North American P-51D-10-NA 44-14799 (354th FS, 355th FG, 8th AF) made wheels up belly landing at RAF Steeple Morden, Cambridgeshire, England due to flak damage Nov 29, 1944. Pilot survived, aircraft badly damaged, unknown if repaired.


View attachment 613504

Pilot 'survived'. I was born about 9 1/2 months later to wife of survivor. The ship, as WR-B JANE IV, that belly landed had 200+ hole pus either 37mm or 40mm hit between fuselage fuel tank and oxygen bottles. Acquired from flak train surprise. His wingman on Nov 29 was Lt Royce Priest - who kept close look on oxy bottle fire until it extinguished copletely over N. Sea. Priest also rescued my father from behind enemy lines on August 18th, 1944.

WR-B 44-14799 was repaired and re-coded YF-H and sent to 358FS where it is shown above. My father had only one mustang that was not badly damaged by flak - his last one - which flew only two combat missions before VE-Day. Four of six belly landed at Steeple Morden, one east of St. Etienne France. One of the five, WRB JANE V went down to flak with Scott Prothro - POW.

As JANE IV, it was displayed in Copic's cover art of Angels, Bulldogs and Dragons - History of the 355th FG WWII

 

[drgondog]

Why does it say bo-mc on the hood?

Dunno - that 'side' belonged to McNally's CC. A P-51D-5 replaced that ship and McNally took it to Scout Force Experimental - as escort pilot for 1st BG volunteers transitioning from tour in B-17s to fly Mustangs as Scouts.

 

[drgondog]

FOTO REPRINT FLUGZEUG P-51 MUSTANG | eBay

43-12410 | American Air Museum in Britain

First P-51 to fly 50 combat missions. Later transferred to the 67th TRG

View attachment 621577

That would be first P-51B to fly 50. Many Mustang Is, IAs, P-51-2-NA, A-36s and probably P-51A in CBI were over the 50 mark.

 

[drgondog]

Great shots. That said they are essentially all NAA photos with bottom cropped - but if they are making money off these shots the legal ogres at Seattle could be all over them.

 

[drgondog]

https://tile.loc.gov/storage-services/service/pnp/fsa/8b04000/8b04900/8b04992v.jpg

Model makers prepare accurately scaled miniatures of planes built at the Inglewood, California plant of North American Aviation, Incorporated. Here an experimental model of the P-51 ("Mustang") is being finished for wind tunnel and other tests.

View attachment 636334

This looks to be the wind tunnel model Merlin Powered Pursuit at which time various sliding canopies similar to A6M, circa ept 1942 were conceived and tested before bubble canopy. It still appears in NA-73 through NA-101 wing position, before dropping down 3" for P-51B and Subs. The first model of the new canopy was with conceptual design of modified NA-99 w/Allison - got good data but the NA-99 and NA-101 XP-51B andNA-102 were too far down the road. NAA sold the concept in March 1943, along wth six gun wing for NA-106 P-51D-1-NA

 

[drgondog]

Old photograph North American P-51 Mustang fighter | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Old photograph North American P-51 Mustang fighter at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

www.ebay.com

Baugher P-51B-10-NA 43-7116 (76th FS, 23rd FG) crashed from unknown cause between Luliang and Liuchow, China Oct 28, 1944. MACR 10058. Pilot killed.

View attachment 639659

P-51B-10-NA #4, fourth P-51B-10 to have 85gal fuse tank as production article.

 

[drgondog]

1940s airplane by Aeroplane Photo Supply #754 North American 73 XP-51 Mustang | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for 1940s airplane by Aeroplane Photo Supply #754 North American 73 XP-51 Mustang at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

www.ebay.com

View attachment 629135

Looks like XP-51#1 41-038 at Langley 1942

 

[drgondog]

GREAT WW2 AIRCRAFT PHOTO POST CARD NORTH AMERICAN AVIATION XP-51 W.J.GRAY WWII | eBay

GOOD LUCK! All parts are sold "As Is" with all the benefits and faults. Parts should be professionally inspected/Installed /Fitted.

www.ebay.com

XP-51
View attachment 640945

Think that is actually NA-73X, painted by NAA for publicity. Looks like round windshield. The actua XP-51s for the Army were pulled from first ten production ships, but all had flat front winshield.