Eric Brown's "Duels in the Sky"

[michael rauls]

I would encourage both of you to search out the threads where drgondog has gone over this to the nth degree. I really have no beef with either of your posts (you and NiceOldGuy) except perhaps that the skies were saturated with Mustangs. As drgondog has pointed out many times, frequently (read the majority of the time) Mustangs were always fighting as the underdogs as far as numbers were concerned. Yes it's true, by 1945 there were hordes of Mustangs about, but from December '43 when P-51 ops began through June 6, the Luftwaffe was ALWAYS able to muster up far more interceptors than the 8AF could send long range escort, and hit the bomber stream at weak points v. a thinly stretch Mustang escort.

And at the time, the Lightning/Thunderbolt combination was not getting the job done, they simply didn't have the legs for it, and one thing that seems to get overlooked is most air combat in ETO initiated in the 20-25,000 foot band. RIGHT in the Mustangs wheelhouse, I'll let you extrapolate from there. Had it been a 30,000 ft+ campaign, that would be a different story.

He's (drgondog) posted numbers many times that pretty much point out it was the P-51 that sought out and pounded the Luftwaffe into the ground via long range escort and fighter sweeps. The Mustang also did A LOT of ground attack work, some of the numbers are surprising as to which aircraft had the highest and lowest loss rates/sortie. I'm too lazy to dredge them up but his posts are here with data to support his analysis.

Cheers.

I agree. I read drgndogs info and got a new appreciation for the p51 in the process. Although even before that I thought it was the best of three US major fighters just not by as much as I do now.
What I meant by if the skies had been saturated with them is that if they had not had the p51 available and just kept building and deploying p38s and p47s at full tilt to eventually equal the numbers that there would be of p51s( and of course the few remaining p38 and p47 units) they still could have done the job albeit at higher cost and more time. They both had positive kill ratios against the Luftwaffe. The p47 by quite a bit and it got longer and longer legs over time until they were ultimately pretty close to the Mustangs.
Perhaps saturated was not the best word to use. As I look at it now it does sound like a bit of an overstatement but ultimately we did end up vastly outbuilding and deploying the Luftwaffe by quite a bit.
My thoughts on this are simply mathematicall in nature. If you have a positive kill ratio against an adversary and you are drastically outbuilding him on top of it then the outcome is inevitable.
For sure however, the P51 alowed us to do it quicker and with less loss of life and for this it should indeed be held in verry high regard.

 

[michael rauls]

It just hit me as to why the word saturated beyond perhaps being a bit of an overstatement might raise a few eyebrows.
It makes it sound like im saying the main reason the p51 was successful was superior numbers. Thats not what I meant at all. I was referring to the degree to which we outbuilt Germany and what the outcome would be if the same dynamic would have existed with the p47/p38 instead.

 

[fliger747]

Numbers do have a value. The Naval War college had a formula for the advantage of numbers of equal value ships, I don't remember the exact "fudge factor" but it was surprisingly large. Certainly much of the effectiveness of an escort involves distraction of the interceptors rather than just numbers shot down or even equality in a dogfight. The psychology involved in the bomber crews pressing forth was much improved by having little friends.

 

[Peter Gunn]

It just hit me as to why the word saturated beyond perhaps being a bit of an overstatement might raise a few eyebrows.
It makes it sound like im saying the main reason the p51 was successful was superior numbers. Thats not what I meant at all. I was referring to the degree to which we outbuilt Germany and what the outcome would be if the same dynamic would have existed with the p47/p38 instead.

Hi Mike,

Please don't take what I said the wrong way, I was not trying to be critical and in retrospect I'm pretty sure I knew what you meant. Written words have no inflection, so I hope you did not take offense or felt I was being condescending ( not my intent EVER I assure you... I'm the last guy around here that has any right to be condescending ).

At any rate, I hope there's no hard feelings, I shoot from the hip a little too much ( my wife can attest to that, I figure she must have the patience of Job because I'm not divorced...yet ) and sometimes my foot ends up in my mouth.

Cheers,
Pete

 

[michael rauls]

Hi Mike,

Please don't take what I said the wrong way, I was not trying to be critical and in retrospect I'm pretty sure I knew what you meant. Written words have no inflection, so I hope you did not take offense or felt I was being condescending ( not my intent EVER I assure you... I'm the last guy around here that has any right to be condescending ).

At any rate, I hope there's no hard feelings, I shoot from the hip a little too much ( my wife can attest to that, I figure she must have the patience of Job because I'm not divorced...yet ) and sometimes my foot ends up in my mouth.

Cheers,
Pete

No I didn't take it that way at all. In my 2nd post I was realizing that maybee in choosing the word saturated it was I that had shot from the hip without chosing my words carefully and ended up sounding like I was saying something I didn't mean.( and I wouldn't blame anybody for raising an eyebrow about how that sounded) hence my explanation.
I know what you mean about written words having no inflection. It took me a while to realize that both words going out and words comming in can sound alot harsher than meant when only in print.
No hard feelings from me. Respectful and I hope thoughtful discussion and maybe even occasionaly dabate ( also respectfull of course)but hard feelings NEVER.
Funny thing is it was I that I thought had sounded condescending and dismissive( albeit accidentally so) LOL

 

[CORSNING]

...and many, many more, will answer many of the questions
I have seen posted on this thread.
You guys are great, Jeff

 

[CORSNING]

PS: I forgot to mention to get your butts over to
WWII Aircraft Performance

Mr. Mike Williams and Mr. Neil Stirling will not let you down.

, Jeff

 

[michael rauls]

PS: I forgot to mention to get your butts over to
https:/www.wwiiaicraftperformance.org/

Ok cool. I'll definitely check that out. Thanks!

 

[CORSNING]

Michael,
You're too quick on the draw.
I had to re-enter the correct door to the site after botching it up twice.
I have corrected it in post #87.

Sorry sir, have at it, Jeff

 

[michael rauls]

Ok it's working now. Just took a quick look at it right now but it looks like it will be a great resource.

 

[fliger747]

One of the things I like about "America's Hundred Thousand" is charts are included for not only variants, but often service test vrs. manufacturers test results. For doing flight dynamics of US fighters it was usually my most reliable reference. For those going further into the weeds, USN had a number of interesting studies in aircraft comparison and other evaluations. One of the more interesting was a comparison test between the P-51 and the F4U. As the Navy was interested in parameters for the Pacific War, the evaluation was conducted with that in mind. The P-51 actually did one or more carrier landings in suitability evaluation, but wasn't enough "fun" that extensive trials were carried out. I knew a guy here in Fairbanks that flew the only ski equipped Mustang in a test flight at Ladd Field. Just one flight as it turned out that you had to start at 90 deg to the desired takeoff direction.

 

[Peter Gunn]

*SNIP*

I knew a guy here in Fairbanks that flew the only ski equipped Mustang in a test flight at Ladd Field. Just one flight as it turned out that you had to start at 90 deg to the desired takeoff direction.

That does NOT sound like it would be a whole lot of fun.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

America's Hundred Thousand is s great book. One of the best out there. A great source.

 

[fubar57]

I like it when threads turn out all warm and squishy. Everyone now.....2 verses of Kumbaya

 

[fliger747]

As far as the ski equipped Mustang trial went, I think that's why there wasn't a second flight. I wonder if the gear was left extended, unfortunately the gentleman passed several years ago. I don't remember if more than one arrested carrier landing was done or not. Apparently the minimum approach speed and the maximum speed they though the fuselage would take on hooking was quite close and the Pony's handling made the Corsair look really good.

 

[Conslaw]

I'm as big a Hellcat fan as Brown, but I can't say that it turned defeat into victory. The tide had been turned before the F6F Hellcat came into service. Based on the combat success of the FM2 Wildcat, I think that if the FM2 had been produced and fielded in numbers sufficient to fill out the complements of the fast and escort carriers, even that plane would have been sufficient to carry out the US Navy's objectives, though probably with higher losses.

 

[fliger747]

Yes, I like the FM2 and it certainly qualifies in the underrated category. The kamikaze threat certainly changed the fleets air defense requirements and such projects as the F8F and F2G might have helped a very bad situation.

The legendary aircraft designer Ed Heinemann in reference to the design of the A4 remarked, "Simplicate and add lightness".

 

[BiffF15]

The legendary aircraft designer Ed Heinemann in reference to the design of the A4 remarked, "Simplicate and add lightness".

Actually that quote is credited to a William Stout, designer of what would become the Ford Trimotor. Often credited to Colin Chapman as well, designer of Lotus cars.

Cheers,
Biff

 

[pbehn]

Actually that quote is credited to a William Stout, designer of what would become the Ford Trimotor. Often credited to Colin Chapman as well, designer of Lotus cars.

Cheers,
Biff

It could be applied to many designers whether they actually said it or not, the Fury and Bearcat were both designed to add lightness. Designs tend to get bigger over time, there comes a point where a conscious effort has to be made to design it smaller. Look at the latest version of the Mini, its huge compared to the original.

 

[CORSNING]

Check this baby out. They kept the weight down by slapping
a tail on the front half of the aircraft and called it quits.