Erich Hartmann - how did his comrades regard him?

Juha said:

Hello Razor
even if many LW pilots thought that a tour lenght of RAF and USAAF fighter pilot was 50 combat sortie, that wasn't true. The limiting factor was operational flight time, 200 hours, for P-51 and P-38 pilots that was more or less like 50 combat sorties, but for Spitfire, P-47 or P-40 pilots clearly more, for Spitfire /Hurricane pilots close to 200 sorties. So some USAAF and RAF pilots in ETO flew appr. 500 combat sorties during the WWII. And in SEA RAF day fighter tour was 300 hours or one year, whichever was completed earlier.

Juha

Click to expand...

The first ETO tour was 270 hours then extended to 300 hours ~ august 1944. Many volunteered for second tour. P-47 pilots obviously flew more sorties to get to 300 hours than Mustang/Lightning pilots in the 8th AF. For TAC/9th it didn't much make a difference as missions were relatively short range/heavy load.

For my father the first tour (all P-51) was 300 hours and 60 missions. He shot down all seven of his air to air scores in his first 35 missions then never fired a shot after that except at ground targets. He only got in 12 more missions on his second tour which was March/April 1945.

Ratsel said:

yes, 70-80 claims only is pure hogwash. 300+ is a very realistic number for Hartmann. I've seen some site that say that was accomplished in 800 or so missions, others say 1400+ missions. I'll have to check whats what and get back to yah.

Aces of the Luftwaffe - Erich Hartmann says 825 missions.

Click to expand...

I think the 825 is when there was contact with the enemy. The 1400 was the total missions.

That would give Hartmann a claim every 2 or 3 missions (for the 825) and a claim for every 4 or 5 missions (for the 1400).

Hello Razor
Hyvää kiitos and how are You?
At least Grislawski also said the same, (50 sorties tour) and after all that was not badly off for P-51 and P-38 drivers. IIRC it was sometimes in 41 when RAF developed the tour system after several Medical Officers had pushed for it because of growing number of battle fatigue cases.
IMHO also in LW there was some rotations, I'd not check for Hartmann or Rall's cases but for ex Lipfert (203 kills) spent some time to train Rumanian pilots and Bär did a couple periods in fighter training jobs but in Bär case that might have been because of fatigue.

Juha

Hello Drgondog
thanks for the correction.
And yes, all the Allied fighter jockeys with appr 500 combat sorties had done several tours.

Juha

Mina olen ok aikian(spelliing/grammar/syntax?), ja 'rioting' Birminghamissa on loppu vai tosi pieni nyt. Paljon kittoksia Juha.
I have ok time, and rioting in Birmingham is stopped or really small/tiny now. very much thanks Juha

the LW did have R&R (Rest Relaxation) rotational breaks and temporary compasionate leave should the superior officers with regards the schwarm's/staffel's/RLM etc orders tactical situation allow it, and also I do not mean to ignore or mis-inform upon the RAF/CW/USAAF tour lengths.

Juha said:

At least Grislawski also said the same, (50 sorties tour) and after all that was not badly off for P-51 and P-38 drivers. IIRC it was sometimes in 41 when RAF developed the tour system after several Medical Officers had pushed for it because of growing number of battle fatigue cases.
IMHO also in LW there was some rotations, I'd not check for Hartmann or Rall's cases but for ex Lipfert (203 kills) spent some time to train Rumanian pilots and Bär did a couple periods in fighter training jobs but in Bär case that might have been because of fatigue.

Juha

Click to expand...

most Luftwaffe pilots had time off after a certain amount of sorties/hours.

parsifal said:

One way this might be relevant to the thread would be to get a number of the claims by the LW, and then compare to actual losses. That way we can achieve a baseline error rate between claims vs actual losses and from their determine if Hartmann was statistically overclaiming and by how much. If he was overclaiming and his collegues were aware of it, they might be resentful of his publicity. personally I doubt that, but surely worth a look at.

Click to expand...

from "WWII Data Book" by John Ellis...

Total Aircraft Production by Axis (1939-45)
Germany.................189,307
Italy.......................11,122
Hungary.................1,046
Rumania................ about 1,000

Losses
Germany (1939-45 - all losses down to 10 per cent damaged)
Total loss..........62,512 (includes 40,613 combat loss)
Damaged..........45,594 (includes 20, 492 combat damage)
TOTAL..............108,106

Italy
Combat............3,269
Accident...........1,771
Scrapped..........292
TOTAL..............5,272

USSR (by period - includes losses by all causes)
Jun 41 - Nov 41..............12,652
Dec 41 - Apr 42..............7,099
May 42 - Oct 42.............14,601
Nov 42 - Jun 43.............17,690
Jul 43 - Dec 43..............20,741
Jan 44 - May 44.............13,386
Jun 44 - Dec 44.............20,283
Jan 45 - May 45............. ?
TOTAL..........................106,652

Ratsel said:

most Luftwaffe pilots had time off after a certain amount of sorties/hours.

Click to expand...

Not really hard to do its not like they have to cross oceans to get home like the majority of Allied aircrew.

Milosh said:

I think the 825 is when there was contact with the enemy. The 1400 was the total missions.

That would give Hartmann a claim every 2 or 3 missions (for the 825) and a claim for every 4 or 5 missions (for the 1400).

Click to expand...

IMHO the right figure is 825 sorties, after all his combat career was appr 2½ years, even if there were days with multiple sorties there were also days without sortie (leaves, bad weather etc) and after all he got his 150th kill on his 391st sortie 13 Dec 43, one year 2 months after he began his combat career.

Juha

razor1uk said:

Mina olen ok aikian(spelliing/grammar/syntax?), ja 'rioting' Birminghamissa on loppu vai tosi pieni nyt. Paljon kittoksia Juha.
I have ok time, and rioting in Birmingham is stopped or really small/tiny now. very much thanks Juha...

Click to expand...

Erinomaista / very impressive, some small mistakes but Finnish is quite different from the indo-european languages, lot of vocals etc, so kiitoksia.

Juha

Hi Nj. There were also aircraft produced in France and Netherlands that were used extensively by the germans. HS129s used French engines.....Germany ordered over 1000 D520s from French factories, of which about 500 were delivered. Most of these were used to bargain oil and other commodities out of "friendly" nations. I believe the Dutch built a limited number of DXXIs which were used as bargaining chips with the Finns. I recall reading somewhere that the Dutch also built quite a few flying boats for Dornier.

Remember also that part of the former czechoslovakia was technically a separate country to Germany, and I believe supplied numbers of aircraft to the germans.

Then we have all the aircraft that the Germans captured and put to use. These were seldom used in the front line, but some thousands were used for various second line duties. Who knows how many

parsifal said:

...I believe the Dutch built a limited number of DXXIs which were used as bargaining chips with the Finns. I recall reading somewhere that the Dutch also built quite a few flying boats for Dornier.

Remember also that part of the former czechoslovakia was technically a separate country to Germany, and I believe supplied numbers of aircraft to the germans.

Then we have all the aircraft that the Germans captured and put to use. These were seldom used in the front line, but some thousands were used for various second line duties. Who knows how many

Click to expand...

Finns didn't get any D.XXIs from Germans, yes most of LWs Do 24s were built in Holland but numbers were not very big. IMHO Czech production was incl in German figures, at least AFVs were.

Juha

Anteeksi/ensuredegung/sorry, I went through my documentary collection - I mis-quoted what Guenther Rall said, (I said it in a shorter 'edited' manner) and from the wrong doc' too
From 45 min 31 sec of 'Warbirds - The Aces' (I believe its called, as I renamed it P-51 Mustang when I copied it onto my PC) is largely about the P-51, US Mustang Aces the latter battles war situation with the Luftwaffe's Reichsluftverteidigung or Reich Home Defence Kommando's.
The bracketed itallics are mine.

"We had to cover an airspace form North Cape to El Alamain throughout North Africa, you know.., with about 700 fighters [along the entire frontlines], it was too less.
So.. we didn't have the same philosophy [then] as you. [..the Allied enemy of then]
You know.. you'd pull a pilot after 50 missions. We let them fly and I always say [refering to bomber pilots I think, shortley after he talks about loosing two of his children, one to bombings his wife nearly dying on a train escaping Vienna the Russians, when it was straffed by Mossies, the attack putting her into labour, delivering stillbirth at 6 months]

'We always had a chance to win an iron cross, or a wood cross.'

And we had tremendous losses, particularly from 44' onwards within the Home Defence, what we called Reichsluftverteidigung.
The average survivabilty for young pilots were three missions, and they'd be killed. [refering to earlier comments in the doc' about post 44' new pilot intakes of pilots, having maybe 150hrs flying time or less - some of those unfortunates even lacked basic navigational training]
And we knew on exactly in every mission when we called, every second won't return to base. [on their fourth mission, the freshest or unluckier pilots wouldn't return]
We then have to keep the fighting moral up. This, this is the problem."

Click to expand...

Apologise of course this is slightly off topic, and Guenther Rall's opinion [and my own opinion/contextual interperations/additions from within that documentary, posted in the spirit of the 'opinion' aspect of the thread.]

yep. makes me wonder how many Allied 'aces' got their claims against pilots without even ' basic navigation training ' or remembering the basics like jettisoning the drop tank. and like Rall said in that interview ' we were always outnumbered, always '.

Ratsel said:

yep. makes me wonder how many Allied 'aces' got their claims against pilots without even ' basic navigation training ' or remembering the basics like jettisoning the drop tank. and like Rall said in that interview ' we were always outnumbered, always '.

Click to expand...

and I wonder how many allied tyros were knocked down by these LW aces . Please remember the LW rarely showed up to fight unless they had the agvantage over France and Belgium 41-44

what about in the east?? zero advantage there. in the west in 44.. advantage or not they had no choise but to go. I doubt that the Luftwaffe had the advantage even 1% of the time. in N.Africa there was no clear advantage. BoB I think they did.. not 100% sure on that one though.

Oh gosh ratsel, I see another difference of opinion raising its head. My view is that from 41-44 the LW was generally never at a numerical disadvantage. Thats because it chose its attacks, and only chose to fight where it held a local advantage. Over france in 41, they nearly always would decline engagement, unless they could see a local advantage. Over Germany in '44, DG has conclusively shown time and again that despite a numerical advantage for the allies frontwise, in terms of total aircraft, in terms of fighters protecting bombers over the target, the LW nearly always massively outnumbered the allied escort forces.

In the east, as a generalization, and excepting the first summer campaign of 1941, VVS was nearly always outnumbered in a local sense. Germany was on the offensive, and was adept at concentrating its forces over the Schwerpunkt. VVS were pretty much incapable of doing this in a cordinated way until Kuban. Even after Kuban, VVS strategic concepts always emphasised broad front strategy in the air, so that even after mid '43 LW would hold the advantage locally in the battles it chose to fight (in terms of fighters), but overall, suffered an increasing numbers imbalance on a frontwise basis.

North Africa, which I assume you would include Malta, the LW rarely fought at any local disadvantage. They would choose their fights, and in those fights would achieve significant local superiorities. This continued right up until Alamein. Its about the strategic priorities of the opponents. allies and Soviets knew they were at a disadvantage individually against a technically superior foe, so they "decentralised", to maximise their numeric advantages. They would be fighting and inflicting losses on the Germans on a wide scale, whereas the germans took a much more restricted approach to the usage of their airpower. Both allies were fighting for a long term strategic vioctory....german theory was about quick and opportunistic uses of air power. one gave short term, battle specific advantages, the other was a long term invesment in winning an overwhelming strategic advatage....the longer this battle went on, the more pronounced the victory became.

German approach and application of air assets worked well until they lost the initiative in that theatre. once on the defensive, they would lose the initiative, and be forced to disperse their effort. once that that happened, the numerical imbalances at a theatre level rapidly showed the weakness of the german strategy....qulaity without numbers in an unconcentrated environment, is going to lead to an inneffective force, unable to hit targets with sufficient weight to make a difference.

Juha said:

IMHO the right figure is 825 sorties, after all his combat career was appr 2½ years, even if there were days with multiple sorties there were also days without sortie (leaves, bad weather etc) and after all he got his 150th kill on his 391st sortie 13 Dec 43, one year 2 months after he began his combat career.

Juha

Click to expand...

From 'Messerschmitt Aces' by Walter A Musciano

Flying over 1425 missions over the Caucasus, southern Russia, Romania, Hungary and Czechoslovakia Hartmann engaged in over 800 dogfights and suffered 13 accidents or equipment failures.

further extract:

Sept 18 1943 - 300 missions, 95 victories

Hartmann's claim list: Aces of the Luftwaffe - Erich Hartmann

Hello Milosh
So? Your link also says that Hartmann flew 825 sorties and his 150th victory was achieved on 13 Dec 43. If you look other LW top aces biographies, they also give credibility to 825 sorties, for ex Lipfert arrived 2 months later to JG 52 and flew over 700 sorties.

Juha

The reference also says 'over 800' combats.

Gerhard Barkhorn was credited with 301 victories gained in 1104 missions.