Escape and Evasion in the Fatherland

airminded88 · Apr 26, 2013

tyrodtom said:
Hiding a enemy was a capital offense during the 3rd Reich, and official method of execution for civilians was the fallbeil ( guillotine). Used from 1933-45, anywhere from 16,000 to 20,000 people were beheaded by the 20 guillotines in Germany and Austria.
That would tend to keep anyone not agreeing very quite.

I agree with your statement tyrodtom; however, I would say that those underground agents assisting evading Allied airmen in the occupies countries were in risk of being executed by the Gestapo or the Wehrmacht as well.

airminded88 · Apr 26, 2013

drgondog said:
Yes - 357FS/355FG Captain Roland Dufresne was shot down near Koln on 11 Feb 1944. He walked to Belgium and then France before hooking up with Underground. Smuggled to a point south of Calais and picked up british. He returned to Steeple Morden in September and was re-instated to combat ops because the part of the Underground he was involved in was over-run by Allies.

Thank you for your input drgondog, highly appreciated.

Do you have further information as how Cpt. Dufresne made his way out of Cologne, Germany into Belgium? Did he made contact with individuals or managed the feat on his own.
His is without doubt a fascinating story.

airminded88 · Apr 26, 2013

bobbysocks said:
would linz austria be deep enough count? there was the account of Lt Bruce Carr from the 354th FG who was shot down and stole a fw 190 from a german airfield and flew it home. i do believe someone else did the same thing afterwards. if you have never read the account of this you should its pretty good and humorus.

Stock Footage - US airmen of 354th FG examine German FW-190 fighter aircraft taken by US Lt. Bruce Carr, in Ansbach Germany

I have read that story before, although was not sure in which part of Europe Lt. Carr 'found' his ride home
If awards would have been give after the war for stylish escapes, Lt. Carr would have come on top

Thanks for the link bobbysocks

stona · Apr 26, 2013

tyrodtom said:
Hiding a enemy was a capital offense during the 3rd Reich, and official method of execution for civilians was the fallbeil ( guillotine). Used from 1933-45, anywhere from 16,000 to 20,000 people were beheaded by the 20 guillotines in Germany and Austria.
That would tend to keep anyone not agreeing very quite.

It was a capital offence for a French, Dutch, Belgian or a citizen of any other occupied country to harbour or aid a downed allied airman. It didn't stop a very large number of very brave people doing exactly that.

It was even more risky for a German, not because there was a policeman of some type hiding behind every door way, but because a German was much more likely to be reported by a fellow German. The many letters sent in by ordinary citizens reporting the most trivial "offences" of their fellow Germans, discovered in the Gestapo (Geheime Staatspolizei) records in the old East Germany make for sobering reading.

Many citizens of occupied countries, whilst not being active in a resistance movement, did choose simply not to see what they might have seen.

Some German resistors were unbelievably courageous, I type I have been reading a biography of Dietrich Bonhoeffer. Others seem naive, even foolhardy.

"Die Sonne scheint noch"—"The sun still shines." Last words of Sophie Scholl....If you don't know her, look her up.

Cheers

Steve

tyrodtom · Apr 26, 2013

In the occupied countries, you not only putting yourself at extreme risk if you helped a downed ally, but you put your entire family at risk.
German citizens at least had the small comfort of a right to a trial, a very small comfort because acquitals were rare.

drgondog · Apr 26, 2013

airminded88 said:
Thank you for your input drgondog, highly appreciated.

Do you have further information as how Cpt. Dufresne made his way out of Cologne, Germany into Belgium? Did he made contact with individuals or managed the feat on his own.
His is without doubt a fascinating story.

No Questionairre attached to the MACR and Dufresne passed away many years ago.

stona · Apr 26, 2013

tyrodtom said:
German citizens at least had the small comfort of a right to a trial, a very small comfort because acquitals were rare.

"Traitors" usually ended up in the Volksgerichtshof (People's Court). You could call that a trial, but under Thierack or his better known successor Fiesler it would be stretching the definition. Certainly not a free trial in the sense that we would understand it today.
Most "defendants" were as good as dead when they walked into court.
Many never made it as far as the court room.
Cheers
Steve

yulzari · Apr 27, 2013

By the Grace of God (of your preference) I doubt if any of us has had the personal experience of living under such threats. We simply do not know how we would have acted in the same situation. Especially with a family to consider. My mother was involved in some resistance work and told me that one simply had no way of knowing how anyone would react. Bold brave men might fold under torture, weak wimps might resist until death.

We must applaud those who chose to act against evil but be vary careful not to blame those who did not. If you were they you do not know what you would have done. I hope that I would have been bold but I fear that I might have been craven. I thank God that neither I nor my children have ever had to make such decisions. Civilians assisting aircrew ran far greater risks than the aircrew and I have met POWs who avoided contacting civilians for help for just that reason.

yulzari · Apr 27, 2013

Whoops. Double post error.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Apr 27, 2013

yulzari said:
By the Grace of God (of your preference) I doubt if any of us has had the personal experience of living under such threats. We simply do not know how we would have acted in the same situation. Especially with a family to consider. My mother was involved in some resistance work and told me that one simply had no way of knowing how anyone would react. Bold brave men might fold under torture, weak wimps might resist until death.

We must applaud those who chose to act against evil but be vary careful not to blame those who did not. If you were they you do not know what you would have done. I hope that I would have been bold but I fear that I might have been craven. I thank God that neither I nor my children have ever had to make such decisions. Civilians assisting aircrew ran far greater risks than the aircrew and I have met POWs who avoided contacting civilians for help for just that reason.

Truth and wise...

CobberKane · Apr 28, 2013

To be entirely fair to the Germans of the time, even those who might have had little time for the nazis might also have borne a perfectly understandable antipathy for the allied airmen who were deliberately bombing their civilian centres to rubble. Of course many civilians were killed in occupied Europe as well, but nothing like the numbers being blown to bits in the Fatherland because they weren't being deliberately targeted. It's hard to imagine a resident of Cologne or Dresden harbouring a downed allied pilot because they agreed Hitler was an A-hole.

airminded88 · Apr 28, 2013

drgondog said:
No Questionairre attached to the MACR and Dufresne passed away many years ago.

drgondog, pardon the lack of knowledge; what's the MACR?

Unfortunate that the whole story passed away along Cpt. Dufresne. Makes me wonder of the volume of accounts that never have been told and likely never will.

airminded88 · Apr 29, 2013

CobberKane said:
To be entirely fair to the Germans of the time, even those who might have had little time for the nazis might also have borne a perfectly understandable antipathy for the allied airmen who were deliberately bombing their civilian centres to rubble. Of course many civilians were killed in occupied Europe as well, but nothing like the numbers being blown to bits in the Fatherland because they weren't being deliberately targeted. It's hard to imagine a resident of Cologne or Dresden harbouring a downed allied pilot because they agreed Hitler was an A-hole.

Germans of the time did not have the huge benefits of hindsight we have today several decades after the conflict, were fed daily by unhealthy doses of propaganda and most of that propaganda in a way was backed the destruction brought the Allied air offensive against Germany, seeing the situation from that perspective I too do not find unreasonable that the only feelings from the average German civilian towards the Allied airman was anger and hatred.

I would dare to say though, that there must have been more than a couple of Germans that hated their regime and Fuhrer so much that would have been willing to endure the punishing blows from the Allied nations to get rid of it.

Do we see potential collaborators there to at least partially help a downed aviator?

airminded88 · Apr 29, 2013

yulzari said:
By the Grace of God (of your preference) I doubt if any of us has had the personal experience of living under such threats. We simply do not know how we would have acted in the same situation. Especially with a family to consider. My mother was involved in some resistance work and told me that one simply had no way of knowing how anyone would react. Bold brave men might fold under torture, weak wimps might resist until death.

We must applaud those who chose to act against evil but be vary careful not to blame those who did not. If you were they you do not know what you would have done. I hope that I would have been bold but I fear that I might have been craven. I thank God that neither I nor my children have ever had to make such decisions. Civilians assisting aircrew ran far greater risks than the aircrew and I have met POWs who avoided contacting civilians for help for just that reason.

Well said yulzari.

I would add that just trying to live a life under German occupation took a lot of guts from all the civilians living in the Nazi-occupied countries; let alone get involved in resistance activities.
My hat is off to all those who risked their lives in one way or another to oppose their invaders.

Escape and Evasion in the Fatherland

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