Everything WE know is wrong.

[kalani]

Shall we address the Owen J. Baggett episode where he was hailed as the only person to shoot down a Japanese Zero with a .45 pistol? Supposedly the Jap pilot flew close to him, while he was descending in his parachute from his mortally damaged B24, and the Jap pilot slowed down, opened his canopy, and flew slowly near Baggett, wherein he took out his .45 and fired 4 shots. Several other airmen in parachutes claimed he hit the pilot because they saw the Zero plummet toward earth. However, Wiki states that Japanese records clearly show they had no casualties in this particular encounter. Personally I doubt it happened and I bring up the subject only because Lt. Baggett and I happen share the same last name, although we are unrelated, AFIK.

I find it unusual that the airmen would be carrying a M1911A1, in that most survival vests featured a long barreled .38 caliber revolver. I'm not saying no, just unusual.

 

[GrauGeist]

I find it unusual that the airmen would be carrying a M1911A1, in that most survival vests featured a long barreled .38 caliber revolver. I'm not saying no, just unusual.

My Great Uncle carried a 1911A1 in a shoulder holster - he was a USAAF P-38 pilot in the PTO.

 

[pbehn]

You're correct about Mustangs arriving earlier in the war than 1943 if you are including Allison powered A36's. But I remember reading somewhere that during "Big Week" the last week in February 1944 the 8th AF would send out around 800 escort fighters with something like 600 P47s, 100 P38s and 100 P51's. So wouldn't it would seem that well into 1944 it was still largely a Thunderbolt show? And the Mustang only dominating in numbers for the last year in Europe when Luftwaffe pilots were largely kids being sent out with minimal time in their respective ME 109 or FW 190?

I am referring to Mustangs, Mk 1 and or P-51A B/Cs and A 36s. The first Mustang Mk1 kill and loss occurred at Dieppe in August 1942. At the time of Big Week the USA was still building up its capability. I am not a fan boy of any particular type, but there weren't just P-47s and P-38s and P-51s there were various versions of them some with better performance than others, RAF Spitfires were also used. Those with the shortest range were used for covering form up and withdrawal and those with the longest range took the bombers to their targets. The strategy of the combined offensive was to destroy the Luftwaffe as much as possible in the air and on the ground before bombing activities were handed over to prepare for D-Day. This was largely achieved in the main, in so far as the LW was not able to pretend to do anything other than defend deep into the German state. Nothing could really be done for the Normandy beaches. I havnt researched it greatly myself but proper historians, who post here have and from what they posted it was the P-51B/C and D that played the greatest part in wiping out the LW by numbers. If you introduce "pilot quality" as a metric then credit must be given to every Mustang/P-51/A36 marque and also every other marque like the first P-47s and the Spitfires that US "Eagle squadrons" used. Individual USA pilots flew in the RAF going back to the Battle of Britain. There were definitely 7 USA pilots in the Battle of Britain and possibly 4 others using Canadian identity. The three Eagle Squadrons formed between formed in late 1940 and July 1941 had 244 USA pilots serving in them, claiming a total of 73 1/2 kills. The individual victories of USA pilots flying in the RAF must also be added to this figure, all of them, obviously, against Germany's most experienced pilots.
Eagle Squadrons - Wikipedia
Non-British personnel in the RAF during the Battle of Britain - Wikipedia

 

[oldcolt357]

I also wouldn't agree that the P-51 arrived late in the war. Mustang Mk Is and P-51As were coming into service just after the USA entered the war. You can construct a fantasy scenario of P-51 airframes being shipped to UK and fitted with RR two stage Merlins in summer 1942. This would have reduced the number of Spitfire IXs and Mustang 1s available to the RAF and the number of P-51As and A-36s available to the USA, all four types were needed and used. Having some Merlin P-51s in mid 1942 may have been an advantage as far as a strategic bombing campaign but the USA in mid 1942 didn't have suitable bombers or the "infrastructure" to prosecute the campaign. Between the Dieppe raid in 1942 when the USA first used the B-17 in numbers and the RAF used the Allison Mustang and Spitfire IX and the start of "big week" in 1944 huge changes were made, not only to the aircraft but also to the knowledge, strategy and execution of raids. The P-51 didn't arrive late, the most photogenic of the stable, the P-51D arrived when it arrived but sometimes is given credit for what its forebears, the P-51B/C achieved in bomber escort missions. It is pilots who score victories, some flew P-47s from start to finish, some flew only P-38s some only P-51s and some flew the whole lot and others too, in Europe and elsewhere.

 

[pbehn]

I think an editing error O oldcolt357 ?

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Airacorbra guy, please allow me to frame a response that is thought out, I'll get back to you.thanks

Airacobra guy.

 

[GreenKnight121]

I find it unusual that the airmen would be carrying a M1911A1, in that most survival vests featured a long barreled .38 caliber revolver. I'm not saying no, just unusual.

My Great Uncle carried a 1911A1 in a shoulder holster - he was a USAAF P-38 pilot in the PTO.

The US Army issued (or gave the option to) its aircrew either the M1911 or a revolver (usually .38 special).

The USN & USMC issued the Smith & Wesson Victory revolver (.38 special), but a few aircrew preferred the M1911 and were able to acquire one (and ammo).

 

[GrauGeist]

The family still has his M3 holster, too.

 

[MiTasol]

If I had lived in Berlin and saw ANTIFA running amok in 30's - 1933 .... I would want them STOPPED. Period.

I think you have your wires very badly crossed
Nazis are fascists
Antifa is an abbreviation of Anti Fascist
Therefore you are saying you wanted anyone who was anti-nazi stopped.

 

[GrauGeist]

I think you have your wires very badly crossed
Nazis are fascists
Antifa is an abbreviation of Anti Fascist
Therefore you are saying you wanted anyone who was anti-nazi stopped.

Antifaschist Aktion - paramilitary arm of the Deutches Social Democrat party (directly funded by the Soviet Union).

 

[Zipper730]

all RAF aircraft were fragile

The Hawker Tempest had an ultimate load factor of 14g.

 

[MiTasol]

Antifaschist Aktion - paramilitary arm of the Deutches Social Democrat party (directly funded by the Soviet Union).

I did not know that but funnily enough it is still very relevant as much of what the new antifa deplore is the white supremacist neo-nazi propaganda that closely mimics the Aryan supremacist nazi propaganda that primarily caused ww2.

Unlike the original, this new antifa is not a formal grouping (according to the FBI) so cannot be funded from Moscow (though maybe some parts are linked just as certain far right groups/persons are) and too much of their rhetoric is definitely not the sort that Moscow or its toadies want.

I wish there was a movement that represented those of us in the middle who think that both extremes are too extreme for us.

 

[GrauGeist]

I wish there was a movement that represented those of us in the middle who think that both extremes are too extreme for us.

The vast majority of folks like us in the middle are too busy with life (work, kids, volunteering, hobbies, life, checking in on the ww2ac forums, etc.) to be out "protesting" and all that nonsense.

 

[Zipper730]

GrauGeist

Basically, from what I remember about 8% of the population is far left, about 12% far right, and the remaining 80% are in the middle and just wish those 20% would shut-up.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

GrauGeist

Basically, from what I remember about 8% of the population is far left, about 12% far right, and the remaining 80% are in the middle and just wish those 20% would shut-up.[/b

 

[Crimea_River]

Channel surfing last night and this description showed up on the Smithsonian Channel. You think they'd know better.

 

[SaparotRob]

The FAA operated F4U's off carriers before the USN.

 

[R Leonard]

Bwahaahaahaaaa

 

[MIflyer]

The first Mustang Mk1 kill and loss occurred at Dieppe in August 1942.

And the pilot of the Mustang I making the kill appropriately enough was an American, and appropriately enough, he was from Hollywood, California.

 

[SaparotRob]

Far Out! That's a great picture.