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- #21
Admiral Beez
Major
Fix the guns forward and no IJAF twin engine bomber stands a chance. But yeah, Oscars and even Nates eat you for lunch.You must be joking.
Excluding Spitfires and Hurricanes, best fighter for Malaya 1940-41?
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The Basket
Senior Master Sergeant
- 3,712
- Jun 27, 2007
It's an available fighter so just play the cards dealt.
Kevin J
Banned
Then since we've sent half our Hurricane IIb production to the USSR, the Spitfire is home defence only, the Tomahawk is the only decent fighter for the Middle East and the Mohawk has been allocated to India then that leaves: 30 Gloster Gladiators, the up to 144 Vultee Vanguards and any leftover surplus Hawker Hurricane Ia's. Alternately, we can buy more Brewster Buffaloes.
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- #24
Admiral Beez
Major
What about more Blenheims. The fighter version Blenheim Mk IF had four mgs in a gun pack under the pilot, see pic.
I would think this gun pack could be shipped to Malaya to install in the Blenheins already there, making every Blenheim a killer of IJAF bombers.
Gladiators can keep the Nates off their backs while the Blenheims go for the IJAF twin engine bombers. The Blenheim is almost as fast as the Ki-27.
Yes, against Oscars and heavens any IJN Zeros that show up the Gladiator/Blenheim force will be in trouble. However when Force Z was sunk there weren't any IJAF fighters sent, so the Blenheims will make a killing.
I agree with Mark on this, a better aeroplane isn't necessarily going to make much of a difference to what eventuated, as so much more was required, but a few things of interest. Some 204 ex-French order Hawk 75s were taken on by the RAF. Before they entered RAF service as the Mohawk they had to have modifications done to them, which included specifically re-rigging the throttle controls so that they worked in the familiar sense - i.e. in French aircraft the power levers were pulled back to increase power output, opposite to the more conventional "Balls-to-the-Wall" of everyone else's aircraft. The first Mohawks did not enter service until mid-1941 with the South African Air Force, the RAF receiving its first Mohawks in December 1941.
Other than the P-36/Hawk 75/Mohawk, the P-40 would seem to be the logical choice - the Tomahawk I based on the P-40C entered service with 26 Sqn in February 1941 as an army co-operation aircraft. The P-40D or Kittyhawk I entered RAF service in December 1941.
As for the M.20 and what Brown thought of it, firstly, only two were built and neither were configured for the navy, although they were considered for the navy. Brown was impressed with the aircraft's performance in flight, being faster than the Martlet and having a good rate of climb, Brown particularly appreciating the view from the blown canopy, which was a rarity in British aircraft at the time, but said that during a dog fight with a Hurricane, "...it was obvious the Hurricane was more manoeuvrable and had a much smaller turning circle. In an attempt to follow the Hurricane in a steep turn I flicked out of control at 140mph without any warning. The Hurricane could also change direction faster and accelerate faster, although the M.20 was itself no slouch."
However, on landing, whilst under test for its carrier approach abilities, Brown remarked that the view from the cockpit forward was bad and that the controls felt sluggish. On cutting the power the aircraft sank rapidly and rearward stick motion was required to prevent the main wheels from hitting first and bouncing. "Half a dozen more landings convinced me that this would not be an ideal deck landing aircraft."
Over all, Brown again: "In essense my report to the Admiralty, which apparently was considering the M.20 to meet Naval Staff Specification N.1/41, expressed the view that the M.20, although surprisijngly nippy in performance, could not match the Martlet, Hurricane or Spitfire for manoeuvrability, and did not offer enough speed performance superiority over the Martlet or Hurricane to give an offsetting advantage."
Lastly, if I was to choose a fighter in service at the time to equip units in Malaya, I'd choose the Messerschmitt Bf 109F - arguably the best fighter in service in 1941!
Other than the P-36/Hawk 75/Mohawk, the P-40 would seem to be the logical choice - the Tomahawk I based on the P-40C entered service with 26 Sqn in February 1941 as an army co-operation aircraft. The P-40D or Kittyhawk I entered RAF service in December 1941.
As for the M.20 and what Brown thought of it, firstly, only two were built and neither were configured for the navy, although they were considered for the navy. Brown was impressed with the aircraft's performance in flight, being faster than the Martlet and having a good rate of climb, Brown particularly appreciating the view from the blown canopy, which was a rarity in British aircraft at the time, but said that during a dog fight with a Hurricane, "...it was obvious the Hurricane was more manoeuvrable and had a much smaller turning circle. In an attempt to follow the Hurricane in a steep turn I flicked out of control at 140mph without any warning. The Hurricane could also change direction faster and accelerate faster, although the M.20 was itself no slouch."
However, on landing, whilst under test for its carrier approach abilities, Brown remarked that the view from the cockpit forward was bad and that the controls felt sluggish. On cutting the power the aircraft sank rapidly and rearward stick motion was required to prevent the main wheels from hitting first and bouncing. "Half a dozen more landings convinced me that this would not be an ideal deck landing aircraft."
Over all, Brown again: "In essense my report to the Admiralty, which apparently was considering the M.20 to meet Naval Staff Specification N.1/41, expressed the view that the M.20, although surprisijngly nippy in performance, could not match the Martlet, Hurricane or Spitfire for manoeuvrability, and did not offer enough speed performance superiority over the Martlet or Hurricane to give an offsetting advantage."
Lastly, if I was to choose a fighter in service at the time to equip units in Malaya, I'd choose the Messerschmitt Bf 109F - arguably the best fighter in service in 1941!
- Thread starter
- #26
Admiral Beez
Major
Hmmm..... it won't be the 109F variant, but have the Dutch government license build the Bf-109 (first flight May 1935) instead of the Fokker D.XXI (first flight Mar 1936). Then Britain buys them from the DEI air force.
buffnut453
Captain
There was already a squadron of fighter Blenheims, No.27, in northern Malaya but they were never used in the true fighter role. Bomber resources were so scarce that they were used almost exclusively as bombers throughout the campaign. Bring more fighter gun packs to Malaya simply reduces the bomber force even further.
As to Force Z, the A6Ms of 22nd Independent Flotilla were within easy reach of Malaya and could easily have supported a follow-on raid even had the first been decimated. However, the ability of the Blenheim to catch the relatively fast Japanese bombers is questionable at best. As it was, fighters were provided for Force Z but Admiral Phillips refused to ask for them, either because he misunderstood their availability or because of some misguided belief that aircraft would be unable to sink a major naval vessel at sea. Even if the RAF had 10 squadrons in Malaya, they can't do much if the Navy doesn't ask for them when they're needed.
Before WW2 really got started..
Italy and Germany were supplying Chaing Kai Shek with weaponry against Japan.
Ironic because all three were Anti-Communist Countries.
Italy was training Gen Chaing's air force and very badly at that.
German trained Gen Chaing's professional National Revolutionary Army.
Sino-German cooperation (1926–1941) - Wikipedia
In pictures you will see Chinese Soldiers holding German Rifles, using German Cannon and wearing the German Uniforms and Helmets.
These Chinese Divisions were very diciplined compared to Chinese Trained units.
Italy and Germany were supplying Chaing Kai Shek with weaponry against Japan.
Ironic because all three were Anti-Communist Countries.
Italy was training Gen Chaing's air force and very badly at that.
German trained Gen Chaing's professional National Revolutionary Army.
Sino-German cooperation (1926–1941) - Wikipedia
In pictures you will see Chinese Soldiers holding German Rifles, using German Cannon and wearing the German Uniforms and Helmets.
These Chinese Divisions were very diciplined compared to Chinese Trained units.
- Thread starter
- #29
Admiral Beez
Major
And indeed it should have been decimated by Buffaloes with the RAF being advised of Phillips' whereabouts. A follow-on raid wouldn't have the first raid's odds of success, as Force Z would have turned south at 28 knots and had Buffalo air cover. Perhaps the fighter Blenheims would also be vectored to support Force Z's withdrawal. And with that, Phillips is hopefully ordered to Ceylon to await Indomitable's arrival.
Instead of letting the Americans take over and ship 100 P-40s from a British order to Chennault in China, they should have been sent earlier to Singapore and Malaya as well as to the Dutch in the Dutch East Indies. What a difference they could have made.
Jake
Jake
Shortround6
Major General
Not really.
Not unless Chenault came with the planes (with a god awful big stick) to train the allied pilots in proper tactics to use against the Japanese. and also came with the chinese early warning system.
Just changing planes or adding 100-200 planes with existing training/tactics/warning (read lack of) and Ideas (Phillips thought radio silence was a better defence that actual fighter cover)
isn't going to change the outcome much.
wuzak
Captain
Kevin J
Banned
It also needed the British to realise that the Empire is over and to more fully utilise the human resources in their Far East Empire to assist in its defence. There was no Royal Observer Corps there. I'm sticking with my resupply from the air idea for cut off army units. In India, the army size was 1% of the population, the air force 1% of the size of that, so dreadfully low. So for Malaya-Singapore this should give an army size of 55,000 and an air force size of 550, not even enough for a squadron of aircraft perhaps only enough for a RAF Regiment.
Hi,
After having read "Bloody Shambles", "Hurricanes Over Singapore", and "Buffalos Over Singapore", I think I kind of tend to agree with what some others have alluded to here, in that I'm not sure it really mattered so much what planes were sent and that it was probably more important to ensure that whatever planes that were used were well supported.
Specifically, if I am remembering correctly:
- Limited Command & Control capabilities meant that, even with radar, many Japanese attacks on airfields occurred with little to no warning.
- Most airfields had only limited anti-aircraft defenses, with some airfields limited to only a pair of low altitude machine guns, while others only had limited medium to high altitude weapons, and no machine guns to protect against strafing, etc.
- Either the full number or manpower for the RAF Maintenance Units in theatre was limited (I cant remember the specifics right now and am away from my books).
- Many airfields experienced a shortage of manual labor to help undertake airfield repairs, etc,
As such, I would be under the impression that likely any airplanes that were sent to Singapore & Malaya, in place of the Buffalos and Blenheims actually sent, would likely befall a similar fate, unless improvements were also made to address many other issues, including those noted above.
After having read "Bloody Shambles", "Hurricanes Over Singapore", and "Buffalos Over Singapore", I think I kind of tend to agree with what some others have alluded to here, in that I'm not sure it really mattered so much what planes were sent and that it was probably more important to ensure that whatever planes that were used were well supported.
Specifically, if I am remembering correctly:
- Limited Command & Control capabilities meant that, even with radar, many Japanese attacks on airfields occurred with little to no warning.
- Most airfields had only limited anti-aircraft defenses, with some airfields limited to only a pair of low altitude machine guns, while others only had limited medium to high altitude weapons, and no machine guns to protect against strafing, etc.
- Either the full number or manpower for the RAF Maintenance Units in theatre was limited (I cant remember the specifics right now and am away from my books).
- Many airfields experienced a shortage of manual labor to help undertake airfield repairs, etc,
As such, I would be under the impression that likely any airplanes that were sent to Singapore & Malaya, in place of the Buffalos and Blenheims actually sent, would likely befall a similar fate, unless improvements were also made to address many other issues, including those noted above.
- Thread starter
- #35
Admiral Beez
Major
That was my impression too upon reading Bloody Shambles Vol.1.
The airfields seemed too many and too poorly defended and supported. It would have been better to concentrate on two big airfields in Malaya plus one in Singapore. It's a small territory, you don't need so many airfields.
The airfields seemed too many and too poorly defended and supported. It would have been better to concentrate on two big airfields in Malaya plus one in Singapore. It's a small territory, you don't need so many airfields.
Hi,
I suspect that you are probably right about the number of airfields. In addition, I also seem to recall that the wet weather had an impact on operations as well, both with causing some aircraft to become temporarily un-operational as well as making the surfaces of some airstrips wet and potentially soft.
Pat
After reading Bloody Shambles I would say any fighter that is good at sitting on the runway and getting straffed and bombed would work just fine.
If they actually planned on launching them and fighting the Japanese aircraft that were there historically, I would go with the Hawk75, but I would, if possible, exchange the Wright 1820 for a P&W 1830 with a 2 speed supercharger. I guess 6 303's would be about the only viable weapons for what the British could support/supply.
If they actually planned on launching them and fighting the Japanese aircraft that were there historically, I would go with the Hawk75, but I would, if possible, exchange the Wright 1820 for a P&W 1830 with a 2 speed supercharger. I guess 6 303's would be about the only viable weapons for what the British could support/supply.
Thats the money quote isn't it, The British empire in the Far East was negligently protected and given 3rd rank status to Stalins USSR.
If Singapore defence had started with Hurricanes rather than Buffalos it may have made a real difference. The Hurricane had better performance and was a well sorted type unlike the Buffalo that they never seemed to get to reliable. A few Defiants thrown in amongst them actually could have been useful for the novelty factor to trick Japanese pilots, also the Defiant is at least as fast/faster than Ki-27 and Ki-43-I which is a luxury it didn't have vs Me109E's.
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buffnut453
Captain
I will agree that Singapore was relatively poorly served on the priority list. However, there's no way that 4 squadrons of Hurricanes rather than Buffalos would have made any substantive difference. Lack of early warning meant that the initial raids by Japanese aircraft caught the RAF on the ground in northern Malaya. The first losses by 453 Sqn when they deployed to northern Malaya on 13 Dec 1941 were largely due to the RAF fighters having just landed, and being forced to take off in the middle of the raid. Similarly, the main air battle over Kuala Lumpur on 22 Dec 1941 saw the RAF fighters struggling to gain altitude when they were engaged, I'm afraid under such conditions, even the latest Spitfires wouldn't have made a difference.
- Thread starter
- #40
Admiral Beez
Major
Four squadrons of the latest Spitfire Mark V won't save the day. Ten squadrons, radar directed, and operating from protected airfields, from where they would escort six or more squadrons of Beaufighters might have made a difference. But with such terrible leadership of the land campaign, the RAF won't save the battle.
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