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Bill that is a lie, I never mentioned the Mustang, all I said was I doubt that the Spitfire ever reached Mach .9 in a dive, I think Mach .82 seems a lot more reasonable.
Soren, you dolt, they aren't kind words man! C'mon buddy. You just don't get it.
How many times are you going to commit this sin. You are in IFC weather and about to spiral in.
but he's unwilling to admit his mistakes, which bothers me.
At what speeds?I remember the pilot telling me Do you know how BIG your intakes look when they're behind you?! They told us you couldn't turn with us!"
If all this was so, why were F-18s sent to William Tell in lieu of the 14, and again I'd like to know the specifics.QUOTE(Spartan 120 @ Jan 31 2007, 02:45 PM) [snapback]195445[/snapback]
But not exclusively the pilot. The aircraft also makes a difference. Eagle Drivers had a pretty seriouys respect for the Tomcat WVR, at least the ones with the Big Engine, because it held its knots extremely well with its wings spread. The F110 engine also gave it a huge energy reserve to work with.
You're right about 75% of the way. But the F-14A could just as easily give--and did give-- the F-15 a pretty bad reputation when they entered service. Another story by Dave Parsons
Pilot skill?QUOTE
One of young guys at Langley went to the local paper after the movie Top Gun came out saying how mighty his F-15C was and how he, too, "ate Tomcats for breakfast". OPs O at VF-101 read it and called his counterpart at Langley and said "You know what has to happen..." So 2 Eagles vs 2 Tomcats (A models) with the young boaster with his Ops O and VF-101 OPs O with a student. Both engagements were 2 zip in favor of Tomcat with OPs O gunning is counterpart (coughed a motor in process but kept on closing for guns) and student taking out the proud Eagle driver. The phone debrief included the statement from the Eagle Ops O, "I don't think he'll be talking to the papers anymore".
Again, this is low speed and the enviornment is set up for trainingAnother story by MDOG at Tomcat-Sunset.com
QUOTE
"As for the B in ACM, the motors NEVER stalled no matter how you jockeyed the throttles and the thing can go "over the top" at 230 kts. We would routinely use asymmetric thrust in a low speed, rolling scissors just to turn the aircraft quicker in the vertical. The only better jet in my opinion in a dogfight was the F-16N. Absolute best you could do against that Viper was a snap gun at the hard deck after a HARD, tight fight down to the deck. You'd better have killed him or he could get the vertical back before you could believe it or not, and then it's game over."
The F-111 and F-15 would accelerate until they started self destructing - the same with the B-1/ From a very reliable source who flew 111s, F-15s and B-1sAlso interesting is his following remark, something a lot of us overlook when it comes to the F-14's performance:
"Something else I should mention. Before [that] 1988 Red Flag deployment, no one could remember the USAF F-111s being run down by anything on the deck, but the Bs did it! In fact, I know Reb Edwards (former test pilot and astronaut) who did the low altitude, high-speed tests on the B at Pax River. He had it up to 830 kts at 500 ft and it was still accelerating when he pulled it back. What a machine!"
Again an opinionA story retold by Tom Cooper, originally by a Iranian Tomcat pilot.
QUOTE
About "early F-14A vs early F-15A":
Both the F-14A/F-15A have great visibility, both have roomy cockpits built for pilots, both have top of the line airframes, both have excellent state of the art avionics, both have powerful engines, and the F-15A/F-14A both have great maneuverability and this is well known by all, even the dumb Russians. The F-15A/F-14A, as aerodynamic platforms will both permit precise target tracking during air-to-air combat, and there are no real angle of attack limits on the F-15A or F-14A in or during combat (training yes). However, the F-15A is not as maneuverable as the F-14A, the F-15A comes close, but the F-14As variable geometry wings and airfoil qualities give the F-14A in fact a great advantage in aerial combat maneuvering every time against the F-15A. In fact at low level with 'pilots of equal skill' the F-14A will always win against the F-15A.
Now you will ask me how do I know this as fact?
Along with 3 other xxxx-pilots during 1975, I was honored to be allowed to take part in a joint USAF/USN air combat evaluation test in the United States. Our group were sent to just be observers but as the Americans found out we were xxxx-F-4E pilots we were soon (and willingly) drafted into the USAF and I was allowed to fly in the two seat F-15B during mock air-to-air combat at Nellis Air Force Base, USA for some 22+ hours of combat training. We flew the USAF F-15A/Bs against a large number of USAF F-4D/E, F-5/T38, F-106A/B, and the USN F-14A, but all of our USAF F-15A pilot host had only one wish, and that was to take on the USNs new F-14As in mock combat. The USAF F-15A pilots only wanted to fly against the best at the evaluation test, the F-14A, and only the F-14As with their USN pilots defeated the F-15A every time during these test combats. As I recall almost all of the USAF F-15A pilots and USN F-14A pilots at this test were ex-F-4 pilots and war tested by Vietnam. I can also recall that some of these pilots had even killed MIGs in Vietnam combat, and one USN pilot had in fact killed an Egyptian Air Force Mig-21FL during the 1973 War as he was flying IDF/AF F-4E. These were most excellent pilots for sure, but none were more professional then the USN F-14A pilots sent to Nellis for this test in my opinion....
Again a lot of opinions - I could go into work and interview 4 or 5 Eagle drivers who would come up with similar stories. I think its going to depend what kind of combat scenario you place the aircraft in to see which is the better of the two. IMO BVR the F-14 has it, once its within the merge at high speed, its going to be the F-15. Jockey speeds and altitudes and the F-14 could be placed in an advantage.This is by another tomcat driver
QUOTE
At the time, F-14 vs. F-15 ACM was supposedly verboten, mostly for political reasons. The Japanese Diet was considering an F-15 buy at the time, and the last thing anyone wanted was any bad F-15 publicity.
Meanwhile, VF-1 positioning out of Fallon, participated in a large Air Force exercise (authorized/unauthorized?) involving among others, eager F-15's.
Studying the charts, we believed that the F-15 might have advantages in many areas, but the F-14 might have some in other flight regimes. We flew as we had prepared, and surprised even ourselves with our overwhelming success over the F-15's – both in our favored regimes, and surprisingly, even in theirs.
Unfortunately, there was a covert journalist in the woodwork (Flight International, as I recall). He later published a long article on how the new Navy F-14's had really beaten up on the Air Force F-15's (which we indeed had), and that the F-14 was far superior than the F-15 (which it was not . . . at least not "far" superior . The article caused some serious, international consternation.
As you correctly indicate, we early F-14A pilots had the advantage of being combat experienced - our squadron had a couple of MiG killers - and many had prior, extensive ACM experience in the F-4. VF-1 may have been a stacked deck, but we had rookies too, and yet we still prevailed. I suspect (no, I'm sure) the Air Force also stacked their deck, and still lost.
Unfortunately, because of the publicity of our F-14's prevailing over their F-15's, our CO got in international, diplomatic, and political, hot water. But all worked out well in the end. And our early success, despite the early F-14A's real handicaps, remains.
And one more anecdote.
QUOTE
The F-14As have very straightforward handling characteristics which for me as pilot made aircraft maneuverability an extension of my dreams and imagination. With just some 100 hours flying time in the F-14A I could pull up a 25 degree angle of attack at about 75mph and roll 360 degrees. The maximum pitch rate is greater then 60 degrees per second....with this capability, I could pitch my F-14A up at a 75 degree attitude and then snap around in just over one second...to acquire...with my 20mm gun system or Sidewinder. Even today I think any pilot would be hard pressed to take on an F-14A in dogfight and win with anything but F-18 or F-22....
"[/I]
And i could agree with thatAnother reason might be the F14 maintenance issues.
Tell me something I don't know
Well I DIDN'T mention the Mustang, so what are you going to make of that ?
I mean he hardheadedly claims that I made some claim regarding the Mustang's critical Mach number, but I infact never even mentioned the Mustang. He gets away with this all the time, claiming I said something I didn't.
PS: Note that in the very same thread he claimed that I lied about mixing up trailing edge Leading edge shockwaves..
I have never heard of the Strike Tomcat proposal? any info?