F-22 vs....

[Evil_Merlin]

FLYBOYJ,

I never doubted that the F-22 can pull 9 G's, nearly every fighter can do that, its holding those G's which is the problem. Also seeing that the F-22 doesn't have the luxury of the Libelle suit I don't even see how any pilot could claim that F-22 can hold 9 G's, and none have so far.

No what you said was, and I quote

"The only a/c I see as a match for the F-22 is the Eurofighter Typhoon."


you were claiming the F-22 and Typhoon II are equal. As that is exactly what match means. The Typhoon II is NOT a match for the F-22. The F-22 exceeds the capabilities of the Typhoon II in nearly every category and many of them by very large margins.

 

[Soren]

Keep moving them goal posts Soren. Keep ignoring the links we have been posting too.

Not moving any posts or ignoring any links, I've read them all and NONE state that the F-22 can sustain 9 G's indefinately, none.

Furthermore, and as already stated, the EF pilots benefit from the Libelle suit which means its pilots can pull more G's for a longer period of time without blacking out.

Autoflug Libelle GmbH

 

[Evil_Merlin]

The Typhoon II still cannot out manuver the F-22.

Lemme know when the Typhoon II can do a Herbst maneuver, Pugachev's Cobra or the Kulbit as well as having control of roll at 60 degree AOA's.

 

[Soren]

In good ol' English to say something is a match for something else just means it's a tough deal to be up against or it's no piece of cake. (Remember I didn't say "A match to" I said "A match for"

Also I later said that overall the F-22 is better, so that should've ruled out any confusion!

 

[Soren]

The Typhoon II still cannot out manuver the F-22.

There's a big possibility it can..

Lemme know when the Typhoon II can do a Herbst maneuver, Pugachev's Cobra or the Kulbit as well as having control of roll at 60 degree AOA's.

Those maneuvers are low speed maneuvers for crying out loud! The dogfight (If there's ever going to be one) isn't going to be at low speed!

 

[FLYBOYJ]

FLYBOYJ,

I never doubted that the F-22 can pull 9 G's, nearly every fighter can do that, its holding those G's which is the problem. Also seeing that the F-22 doesn't have the luxury of the Libelle suit I don't even see how any pilot could claim that F-22 can hold 9 G's, and none have so far.

Oh now we're going to move to the suit? The USAF evaluated the Libelle in 2000 at Edwards and may eventually use it as well. Here's some other info...

http://www.acc.af.mil/shared/media/document/AFD-070413-039.wmv

Code One Magazine Fourth Quarter 2004: The Well-Dressed Raptor Pilot

For the most part the USAF is not advertising information about the suit to be used on the F-22

ATAGS
Next Merrell dons the CSU-23/P Advanced Technology Anti-G Suit, or ATAGS. Like the Combat Edge vest, ATAGS (currently only worn by F/A-22 pilots) provides increased protection from the effects of prolonged high-g environments. As a stand-alone garment, ATAGS provides a sixty percent increase in aircrew endurance. Combined with Combat Edge, it increases aircrew endurance by 350 percent over the current g-suit.


From what I understand the Libelle (or something similar) has been used by several European countries for a few years now and although they seem state of the art I see no real advantage over what is being used in the F-22 if we're now going from comparing the aircraft to support equipment. If the USAF decided to adoubt the Libelle there goes the "sustained 9g argument," but then again what good is the g suit going to be when you're shot down by something you can't see?

 

[Marcel]

The Typhoon II still cannot out manuver the F-22.

Lemme know when the Typhoon II can do a Herbst maneuver, Pugachev's Cobra or the Kulbit as well as having control of roll at 60 degree AOA's.

Sorry, have to agree with Soren here. If you want to show the Raptor is better then the EF, you'll have to compare weapon systems, avionics etc. Stealth is IMO the main advantage for the Raptor over the EF. Those manoeuvres can be useful in very distinct occasions, but isn't an overall advantage in today's areal warfare.

 

[Evil_Merlin]

Sorry, have to agree with Soren here. If you want to show the Raptor is better then the EF, you'll have to compare weapon systems, avionics etc. Stealth is IMO the main advantage for the Raptor over the EF. Those manoeuvres can be useful in very distinct occasions, but isn't an overall advantage in today's areal warfare.

I already did that pages ago.


Soren claimed the Typhoon II was more manuverable than the F-22. It isn't. I never said they were useful in combat but they DO show the manuverability of the aircraft.

Stealth, high speed supercruise, high manuverablility, superior radar and avionics all favour the F-22 by huge margins over the Typhoon II.

 

[Evil_Merlin]

Those maneuvers are low speed maneuvers for crying out loud! The dogfight (If there's ever going to be one) isn't going to be at low speed!

Then the game is over even before it started for the Typhoon II. The F-22's far superior radar and detection system would have picked up the Typhoon II before they even knew the F-22 was out there.


You keep changing the goal posts Soren, and you still keep looking like the fool.

 

[lesofprimus]

This is getting old.... And repetitive....

When the TiffyII and the Raptor go head to head at Red Flag, the truth shall set us all free....

My money is on the Raptor, in every catagory...

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

FLYBOYJ,

I never doubted that the F-22 can pull 9 G's, nearly every fighter can do that, its holding those G's which is the problem. Also seeing that the F-22 doesn't have the luxury of the Libelle suit I don't even see how any pilot could claim that F-22 can hold 9 G's, and none have so far.

Where is your proof that the F-22 can not pull the same G's for as long? Quit speculating.

 

[Matt308]

This is getting old.... And repetitive....

When the TiffyII and the Raptor go head to head at Red Flag, the truth shall set us all free....

My money is on the Raptor, in every catagory...

Were it so, Les. Like the Indians with Su-27s, the intent of the exercises is not to humiliate nor aire shortcomings in technology or training. Any US sponsored exercises with allies will be PC. And rightly so. Keep the enemy thinking I say.

 

[Ramirezzz]

The MiG-29 CANNOT do the Pugachev's Cobra unless it starts at a 30 degree entry angle.

Actually the later versions equipped with the FBW are able to perform the cobra

I didn't get any ideas buddy, the EF Typhoon has the best most sophisticated pilots interface in the world

I had once an opportunity to sit in EF driver seat with avionics turned on - I could barely read the gauges on the both MFCDs)) Just my 5 cents)

 

[lesofprimus]

Were it so, Les. Like the Indians with Su-27s, the intent of the exercises is not to humiliate nor aire shortcomings in technology or training. Any US sponsored exercises with allies will be PC. And rightly so. Keep the enemy thinking I say.

While the Service may be quiet about some of the results, the pilots always blurt out tasty quotes.... There will be some coming that will solidify the Raptor as the premier fighter in the skies, unquestioned...

 

[Soren]

Oh now we're going to move to the suit? The USAF evaluated the Libelle in 2000 at Edwards and may eventually use it as well. Here's some other info...

http://www.acc.af.mil/shared/media/document/AFD-070413-039.wmv

Code One Magazine Fourth Quarter 2004: The Well-Dressed Raptor Pilot

For the most part the USAF is not advertising information about the suit to be used on the F-22

ATAGS
Next Merrell dons the CSU-23/P Advanced Technology Anti-G Suit, or ATAGS. Like the Combat Edge vest, ATAGS (currently only worn by F/A-22 pilots) provides increased protection from the effects of prolonged high-g environments. As a stand-alone garment, ATAGS provides a sixty percent increase in aircrew endurance. Combined with Combat Edge, it increases aircrew endurance by 350 percent over the current g-suit.


From what I understand the Libelle (or something similar) has been used by several European countries for a few years now and although they seem state of the art I see no real advantage over what is being used in the F-22 if we're now going from comparing the aircraft to support equipment. If the USAF decided to adoubt the Libelle there goes the "sustained 9g argument," but then again what good is the g suit going to be when you're shot down by something you can't see?

Only problem is that those tests are very suspect as they didn't achieve the same results as other European users.

You can read it here on Autoflug's own site: Autoflug Libelle GmbH

I highly suggest reading it all.

In short: The Libelle is a very big advantage for the EF pilot over the F-22 pilot.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Only problem is that those tests are very suspect as they didn't achieve the same results as other European users.

You can read it here on Autoflug's own site: Autoflug Libelle GmbH

I highly suggest reading it all.

Why would they even say that? The tests conducted at Edwards gave a very positive assessment of the Libelle (from what I read on the link posted by the USAF) and it would not surprise me if the USAF either buys the Libelle or has a subcontractor make them here - at the same time little is said about the suit currently used on the F-22 and how long a pilot could sustain a 9.5G turn.

BTW the site is referencin 1998 tests - the site I posted addressed tests conducted in 2000

It's spring break here at USAFA - there's at least one instructor here who has been around the F-22. When everyone returns next week I'm going to corner him and ask him about the F-22 suit and the current suits used by F-15 and F-16 pilots.

In short: The Libelle is a very big advantage for the EF pilot over the F-22 pilot.

Providing the EF pilot could get close enough to even attept to dogfight an F-22....

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Here the link for the 2000 tests...

Liquid anti-G suit developed | Signal | Find Articles at BNET.com

 

[Evil_Merlin]

Its suspect because it was done by Americans. I've not been around here long, but I've been around long enough to know Soren is very anti-American biased.

 

[Evil_Merlin]

In short: The Libelle is a very big advantage for the EF pilot over the F-22 pilot.

What a bunch of flawed logic. Thrust vectoring is a very big advantage for the F-22 pilot over the Typhoon II pilot.

 

[Soren]

Its suspect because it was done by Americans. I've not been around here long, but I've been around long enough to know Soren is very anti-American biased.

Sure and that's also why I said that the F4U-4 is amongst the top 3 fighters of WW2, right ??

Anti-American