Evil_Merlin
Airman 1st Class
Oh another addendum, the Air Force is saying at airshows the engines can each produce 37,000+ lbs of thrust...
F-22 vs....
- Thread starter The Nerd
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LoL Adler! And in what way is what EM is doing any different ?? EM hasn't posted sh*t in the way of sources, and yet I'm the one who you pound!
You claim you're not after me Adler, but then how come EM avoided your searchlight here ?
And as if that isn't enough you again put words into my mouth saying that I claimed that the EF was superior to the F-22, I NEVER claimed anything like that! nothing even close! All I ever said was that the EF is the closest to the F-22 out there, and that the F-22 isn't as overwhelmingly superior an a/c as EM wants us to believe.
Fact is that when talking about these new generation fighters there's very little in the way of facts sources available to ANYONE, and therefore all ANYONE can do is speculate. So like I've already explained all I have said on this subject is based solely on the scarce amount of data available and then opinion.
EM,
Provide sources for all your claims or they are just speculations on your part, pure and simple.
I'd esp. like to see the sources for your claim that the F-22 is more maneuverable than the EF Typhoon and that it's fast by Mach .42.
All the data I have on both fighters is that they both have a top speed of Mach 2+ at full power, and a similar service ceiling. The EF has the advantage of a lower wing-loading, and considering that both a/c feature LE flaps, this advantage will be noticeable in the capability to sustain G's.
You claim you're not after me Adler, but then how come EM avoided your searchlight here ?
And as if that isn't enough you again put words into my mouth saying that I claimed that the EF was superior to the F-22, I NEVER claimed anything like that! nothing even close! All I ever said was that the EF is the closest to the F-22 out there, and that the F-22 isn't as overwhelmingly superior an a/c as EM wants us to believe.
Fact is that when talking about these new generation fighters there's very little in the way of facts sources available to ANYONE, and therefore all ANYONE can do is speculate. So like I've already explained all I have said on this subject is based solely on the scarce amount of data available and then opinion.
EM,
Provide sources for all your claims or they are just speculations on your part, pure and simple.
I'd esp. like to see the sources for your claim that the F-22 is more maneuverable than the EF Typhoon and that it's fast by Mach .42.
All the data I have on both fighters is that they both have a top speed of Mach 2+ at full power, and a similar service ceiling. The EF has the advantage of a lower wing-loading, and considering that both a/c feature LE flaps, this advantage will be noticeable in the capability to sustain G's.
Evil_Merlin
Airman 1st Class
Actually Soren ALL the information I posted is right off of Lockheed's or the USAF's information releases on the F-22. All information was taken from public Air Force web sites and interviews with F-22 pilots.
Care to try again?
In otherwords Soren, as people have been saying, put up, or shut up.
Merz himself has plenty to say on the topic. If you don't know who Merz is I suggest you figure it out. It was Merz who claimed the F-22 could easily do Mach 2.42
Carlo Kopp interviews F-22 Chief Test Pilot, Paul Metz
Cruise speed in supercruise is Mach 1.72, 1,140 mph (1,830 km/h) at high altitude was confirmed by EX-USAF Chief of Staff Gen. John P. Jumper who said it himself.
Maximum sustaineous g-load was pegged at 9.5 g and it was has been confirmed by two Raptor's pilot in late 2007 who flew the F-22 for public demo's.
As for being more manuverable, I've said it TWICE, apparently you cannot get your biased head around it. The F-22 is capable of the Herbst maneuver, Pugachev's Cobra and the Kulbit as well as having control of roll at 60 degree AOA's. You want to explain why, if the Typhoon II was more manuverable, it cannot do the same? After all, according to the information you pull out of the air, its more manuverable than the F-22 but isn't even capable of these four manuvers.
1.) The F-22 is considerably faster than the Typhoon II
2.) The F-22 is considerably more manuverable than the TYphoon II
3.) The F-22 is far more stealthy than the Typhoon II
4.) THe avionics package carried by the F-22 is far superior than that carried by the Typhoon II.
That puts the F-22 into the quite a bit more superior than the Typhoon II in my book.
SO once again, put up or shut up.
Care to try again?
In otherwords Soren, as people have been saying, put up, or shut up.
Merz himself has plenty to say on the topic. If you don't know who Merz is I suggest you figure it out. It was Merz who claimed the F-22 could easily do Mach 2.42
Carlo Kopp interviews F-22 Chief Test Pilot, Paul Metz
Cruise speed in supercruise is Mach 1.72, 1,140 mph (1,830 km/h) at high altitude was confirmed by EX-USAF Chief of Staff Gen. John P. Jumper who said it himself.
Maximum sustaineous g-load was pegged at 9.5 g and it was has been confirmed by two Raptor's pilot in late 2007 who flew the F-22 for public demo's.
As for being more manuverable, I've said it TWICE, apparently you cannot get your biased head around it. The F-22 is capable of the Herbst maneuver, Pugachev's Cobra and the Kulbit as well as having control of roll at 60 degree AOA's. You want to explain why, if the Typhoon II was more manuverable, it cannot do the same? After all, according to the information you pull out of the air, its more manuverable than the F-22 but isn't even capable of these four manuvers.
1.) The F-22 is considerably faster than the Typhoon II
2.) The F-22 is considerably more manuverable than the TYphoon II
3.) The F-22 is far more stealthy than the Typhoon II
4.) THe avionics package carried by the F-22 is far superior than that carried by the Typhoon II.
That puts the F-22 into the quite a bit more superior than the Typhoon II in my book.
SO once again, put up or shut up.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
"Capt. Brian Budde, 94th FS pilot, explained the F-22 is able to sustain more than nine Gs for much longer than the F-15, without running out of airspeed. From the pilot's perspective, the F-22 "is more power than you know what to do with," said Captain Budde. So much power, in fact, the F-22 enjoys capabilities alien to legacy fighters."
Feature - Raptors wield 'unfair' advantage at Red Flag
Feature - Raptors wield 'unfair' advantage at Red Flag
Evil_Merlin
Airman 1st Class
OK Soren, keep being the ass, I'll keep posting facts like this:
Code One Magazine: F-22 Pilot Perspective — October 2000
"But I can say that this airplane will perform outside the realm of current and projected fighters. Since speedrelates to distance, such things as mutual support and strike escort take on new meanings in terms of positioning and reacting to a threat."
"Nothing can sustain supersonic conditions with the persistence of a Raptor."
"it's top speed is classified but it'll do 1600 mph. It's fast. I mean it's REALLY fast."
OK so Soren, where are your facts about the Typhoon II being more manuverable, comparible in speed and a lot less expensive?
The F-22 is capable of the Herbst maneuver, Pugachev's Cobra and the Kulbit as well as having control of roll at 60 degree AOA's. You want to explain why, if the Typhoon II was more manuverable, it cannot do the same? After all, according to the information you pull out of the air, its more manuverable than the F-22 but isn't even capable of these four manuvers. I'm still waiting for you to explain that the Typhoon II is more manuverable...
Do us all a favour, and get yourself a bit more educated. Provide FACTS Soren. Plenty of us have provided them here shooting 20mm wide holes in your attempts at Typhoon II/F-22 parity.
PS: did you even BOTHER to read the link I provided above? Doesn't sound like it.
Code One Magazine: F-22 Pilot Perspective — October 2000
"But I can say that this airplane will perform outside the realm of current and projected fighters. Since speedrelates to distance, such things as mutual support and strike escort take on new meanings in terms of positioning and reacting to a threat."
"Nothing can sustain supersonic conditions with the persistence of a Raptor."
"it's top speed is classified but it'll do 1600 mph. It's fast. I mean it's REALLY fast."
OK so Soren, where are your facts about the Typhoon II being more manuverable, comparible in speed and a lot less expensive?
The F-22 is capable of the Herbst maneuver, Pugachev's Cobra and the Kulbit as well as having control of roll at 60 degree AOA's. You want to explain why, if the Typhoon II was more manuverable, it cannot do the same? After all, according to the information you pull out of the air, its more manuverable than the F-22 but isn't even capable of these four manuvers. I'm still waiting for you to explain that the Typhoon II is more manuverable...
Do us all a favour, and get yourself a bit more educated. Provide FACTS Soren. Plenty of us have provided them here shooting 20mm wide holes in your attempts at Typhoon II/F-22 parity.
PS: did you even BOTHER to read the link I provided above? Doesn't sound like it.
I'm still confused by this discussion; the ability of the F-22 and Typhoon to do aerobatics has no place in modern warfare. Agility is an advantage but if the Typhoon could turn 360 degrees two seconds quicker, it would make no difference. Throw the machine around like a prepaid whore, the Raptor is 100 miles away and tracking your ass from space to the ground 'n there's nothing you can do about it.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Well said D - the bottom line is who ever sees the enemy first and gets the shot off wins, and right now the F-22 has that advantage - PERIOD.
Err you do realize that nothing is mentioned of the F-22 being capable of retaining 9 G's indefinately. That the F-22 can hold 9 G's for much longer than its predecessors is no surprise, I knew that already. The question is, can it hold 9 G's indefinately as the Typhoon can ??
Evil_Merlin
Airman 1st Class
Are you blind? Are you honestly telling me that quotes, interviews and information FROM THE PILOTS THAT FLY THE F-22 isn't a reliable source?
Where the hell are yours? I've provided at least 5.
Keep sticking your fingers in your ears. You just keep looking the part of the fool.
Where the hell are yours? I've provided at least 5.
Keep sticking your fingers in your ears. You just keep looking the part of the fool.
No Soren I am just sick and tired of your biased dribble in every single forum. Sometimes I enjoy your posts because you are a very knowledgable person, and then in others...
In fact everyone is tired of it!
Soren said:
No Soren go back and read your damn posts! It is quite evident what you mean or else everyone would not be jumping on you.
[qutoe="Soren"]Fact is that when talking about these new generation fighters there's very little in the way of facts sources available to ANYONE, and therefore all ANYONE can do is speculate. So like I've already explained all I have said on this subject is based solely on the scarce amount of data available and then opinion.[/quote]
Your right its only racts when it supports your biased opinion.
Soren said:
As are all of your claims. Nothing more than speculations Soren, nothing more...
SoD Stitch
Banned
For anybody who's interested, here's another good on-line article from Smithsonian Air Space Magazine; it's a few years old now, but there is still a lot of pertinent information in it:
Air Space Magazine | Military Aviation | The Raptor Arrives
Air Space Magazine | Military Aviation | The Raptor Arrives
I think you're right that European countries are taking China less serious than the US does. If that is a good or a bad thing, I don't know, only time will tell, I'm afraid.
Good post Plan and exactly what I wanted to post. Being able to do a nice Cobra manoeuvre will impress the crowd at a flight show, but hardly has any military value. Sadly the days of the Baron are over
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
There's nothing indicating that it won't and everything indicating that it can!
SoD - good article. Here's a few quotes...
"The Raptor is simple: You pull on the stick and you get 9 Gs almost instantly. Little inputs on stick and the throttle give you large outputs. Its responsiveness and maneuverability over anything else airborne is instantly apparent."
"Air Force planners expect that the Raptor will spend little time dogfighting; "supercruise and stealth are so much more important," Cabral says. In a Raptor, a visual encounter should take place only "because you choose it," he says, "and you arrive in the merge with complete surprise."
"The Raptor's radar range is classified, but Stapleton says he has "seen targets beyond 320 miles."
"The F-15 has been around for 30 years and its tactics have evolved," he says. "But we don't have a lot of Raptor data points yet—we're still building them. It's a big gray area. Honestly, we don't know what we don't know."
Soren, we seen two referances about 9g turns - I'm sure we're going to see a real life comparison between the two in a mock arena providing they even get close enough (before the F-22 shoots down the Typhoon) to prove this sustained 9g turn you're so hung up on.
FLYBOYJ,
I never doubted that the F-22 can pull 9 G's, nearly every fighter can do that, its holding those G's which is the problem. Also seeing that the F-22 doesn't have the luxury of the Libelle suit I don't even see how any pilot could claim that F-22 can hold 9 G's, and none have so far.
I never doubted that the F-22 can pull 9 G's, nearly every fighter can do that, its holding those G's which is the problem. Also seeing that the F-22 doesn't have the luxury of the Libelle suit I don't even see how any pilot could claim that F-22 can hold 9 G's, and none have so far.
Evil_Merlin
Airman 1st Class
Keep moving them goal posts Soren. Keep ignoring the links we have been posting too.
Adler,
I've re-read all my posts and no'where did I ever claim that the EF was superior to the F-22, ever! All I've said is that they're the close.
Also if you cared to read my posts before judging me you'd see that I said that the F-22 overall is a better fighter, and that the EF is the closest to it out there.
I've re-read all my posts and no'where did I ever claim that the EF was superior to the F-22, ever! All I've said is that they're the close.
Also if you cared to read my posts before judging me you'd see that I said that the F-22 overall is a better fighter, and that the EF is the closest to it out there.
Evil_Merlin
Airman 1st Class
Oh Soren by the way, here is another quote from a F-22 pilot
"Look, BFM in the Raptor is boring.' And it was true. The plane is so powerful and responsive, it can turn so tight and sustain such high Gs and angles of attack, that I can fly to the center of his turn circle and keep my nose and weapon on him all day. Whatever he tries to do, I can just point my airplane.
"When I was flying defensive BFM, he simply couldn't enter into my turn circle. Even if he flies his weapon to the best of its capabilities and I make errors, he cannot win. It's almost too easy."
"Look, BFM in the Raptor is boring.' And it was true. The plane is so powerful and responsive, it can turn so tight and sustain such high Gs and angles of attack, that I can fly to the center of his turn circle and keep my nose and weapon on him all day. Whatever he tries to do, I can just point my airplane.
"When I was flying defensive BFM, he simply couldn't enter into my turn circle. Even if he flies his weapon to the best of its capabilities and I make errors, he cannot win. It's almost too easy."
