F-35 grounded - again

[ivanotter]

Good to see yu around again, Flyboy. Always worth listening to.

What is the biggest risk to the project now? As you also pointed out, it is probably not in the technical sphere anymore.

If the price is going up much more, can the smaller countries afford it? I think that is the problem.

I am not up-to-date on orders for F-35 anymore, but I think that the number of aircraft is dwindling? if that is so, what is the critical number?

Have you got experience with this as well? Was the Raptor not also on a downward spiral in terms of orders?

Ivan

 

[Matt308]

The biggest risk is satisfying a very aggressive flight test schedule and completion of technical milestones. I don't recall the exact block release they are working towards, but upon a successful flight test/milestone completion this validated block release will officially give the airplane initial capability for air-to-air combat operations. Future milestones and subsequent block releases will introduce air-to-ground combat capabilities and weapon integration for foreign customer weapon systems.

I bet GE-Rolls Royce are salivating about now.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Good to see yu around again, Flyboy. Always worth listening to.

Many Thanks!

What is the biggest risk to the project now? As you also pointed out, it is probably not in the technical sphere anymore.

Money, the media/ politicians and peace.

If the price is going up much more, can the smaller countries afford it? I think that is the problem.

This depends - much of the bad press around the cost centers around the US program. Once the line is started and production units are rolling at full stride, costs will drop. You also have issues with avionics which are a subject matter in it self. It's also going to depend what electronic goodies smaller countries will purchase.

I am not up-to-date on orders for F-35 anymore, but I think that the number of aircraft is dwindling? if that is so, what is the critical number?

I don't knwo where it sits on firm orders, but the DoD wants about 2,500 units and right now the Obama administration seems to still support the program.

Have you got experience with this as well? Was the Raptor not also on a downward spiral in terms of orders?

Ivan

The Raptor's price was based on total production units. About 200 were initially ordered, I think about 165 got delivered.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

This in today...

Grounding, budget woes cloud F-35 warplane sales push in Australia - Yahoo! Finance

 

[davebender]

So was F-15. That didn't prevent the excellent F-15E evolving from the initial air superiority fighter.

 

[CharlesBronson]

I am particulary fond to wait and see if the geared fan system in the F-35 VTOL variant will be as realible and durable as the Harrier vectoring system.

 

[syscom3]

In the 1970' when the F15 and F16 went through their teething problems, the US economy was in far greater shape to handle cost issues. We don't have that luxury anymore. So many needs by the pentagon and we cannot support them all. We're all adults here and know very well that our family budgets have to be prioritized between what we want and what we can afford. This where we are with every d*** program with the military. Costs for everything is now prohibitive and cruel choices must now be made.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

So was F-15. That didn't prevent the excellent F-15E evolving from the initial air superiority fighter.

It didn't, but the F-15 didn't have a RA coating that prevented it from carying external stores.

 

[gumbyk]

Anyone got any idea what it would cost to cancel this program? (Cancellation fees, compensation, job losses, etc)

 

[Matt308]

The DoD spends about 6+% of our yearly Federal budget. More than half of the federal budget is social handouts with over 47% of individual Americans receiving some sort of social benefit. The US constitution specifically states that the Fed Gov't is responsible for security of the state. Nowhere is it mentioned that the Fed Gov't is to clothe, feed, educate and shelter citizens.

{Great. Now I have to ban myself.}

 

[syscom3]

I would gladly cut the DOD budget to fully fund any NASA and JPL programs.

Matt, we are in an end game here. What everyone wants and what we can afford is not sustainable. I don't care were you assign blame, but the fact is; we cant afford it.

 

[davebender]

I disagree.

As long as U.S. troops are in combat they deserve the best support money can buy.

 

[Matt308]

You and I are in violent agreement. But wisdom says the money manager must prioritize. And with US constitution backing, I would vociferously argue that the DoD 6% budget is not the tree you bark up. To do so is ignorant and folly. Don't get me wrong, there is certainly waste. But to gut the DoD and ignore the other 94% is criminal, unconstitutional and frankly treasonous.

 

[mikewint]

I woud totally agree that this is a pressing need for the Armed Forces. I have one question and perhaps FBJ will address it. Are We, the USA, following the German WWII weapons developoment path, i.e. making more and more complicated and expensive weapons systems that are difficult to impossible to maintain in a war scenario? What is the survivability of these complicated systems in wartime. Shootup a Spitfire and with some baling wire and tape its back flying next day. How many 20mm cannon rounds can a B-2 take and fly home and if it does who fixes it?
A Tiger tank in today's money would cost a million plus. An Abrams runs over 4 million.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

"Everyone wants to go to heaven, but no one wants to die to get there."

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I woud totally agree that this is a pressing need for the Armed Forces. I have one question and perhaps FBJ will address it. Are We, the USA, following the German WWII weapons developoment path, i.e. making more and more complicated and expensive weapons systems that are difficult to impossible to maintain in a war scenario? What is the survivability of these complicated systems in wartime. Shootup a Spitfire and with some baling wire and tape its back flying next day. How many 20mm cannon rounds can a B-2 take and fly home and if it does who fixes it?
A Tiger tank in today's money would cost a million plus. An Abrams runs over 4 million.

In some respects I agree with you, but then again after the Vietnam War, when the DoD placed an emphasis on technology and survivability, how many aircraft and aircrews were lost in combat when compared to Vietnam and earlier? Smaller number of aircraft today are doing twice or three times the job compared to hardware 40 of 50 years ago with a fraction of the losses but five times the price. Is it worth it? Ask the family of today's combat pilot.

 

[Matt308]

And now we have no compelling draft. Our men and women are serving duties that are unheard of in our history. Shame on us citizens for either not voluteering or forcing our elected members to impress a change in our foreign policy. Shame on us all. From bottom to top.

 

[wuzak]

A question. Do you think that without the requirement for a STOVL variant that the F-35 may have ended up a twin engined aircraft instead, using two smaller engines, such as those in the F-18 (upgraded, of course)?

Another, apart from landing on helicopter platforms, do the Marines need hovering/vertical lift capability in their fighetr/attack jets?

 

[FLYBOYJ]

A question. Do you think that without the requirement for a STOVL variant that the F-35 may have ended up a twin engined aircraft instead, using two smaller engines, such as those in the F-18 (upgraded, of course)?

No - the concept was to make the aircraft as light at possible and that's why LMCO designers went with the lift fan. The concept works and was well demonstrated during the X-35/ X-32 fly off.

Another, apart from landing on helicopter platforms, do the Marines need hovering/vertical lift capability in their fighetr/attack jets?

That's an argument firmly in place right now.

 

[wuzak]

No - the concept was to make the aircraft as light at possible and that's why LMCO designers went with the lift fan. The concept works and was well demonstrated during the X-35/ X-32 fly off.

Sorry, I was asking if there was no STOVL variant if it would have a big single engine or two smaller ones. I understand that the single engine with lift fan works well for STOVL, and that the single engine negates the possibility of assymetric lift thrust if one engine goes down.

In essence I am asking how much of the F-35A and F-35C designs have been driven by the F-35B?