F-8 Crusader or F-105 Thunderchief

[mikewint]

The Crusader was used for air-to-air combat and actually had the best kill/ loss ratio during the Vietnam War.

I was under the impression that the F-4 had the best K/L record. I recall one of the F-4 squadrons had a motto about being the worlds top supplier of used MIG parts

 

[davparlr]

There is a long and on-going debate on which was the best dog fighter, the F-4 or the F-8. I believe the F-8 had the best record. The F-4 was not a great dog fighter. It was big and heavy and not great at maneuvering. It did, however, have huge engines and was very fast. The F-4 was not great at any particular task, but it was good at many.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I was under the impression that the F-4 had the best K/L record. I recall one of the F-4 squadrons had a motto about being the worlds top supplier of used MIG parts

The Crusader had a higher kill/ loss ratio than the F-4

 

[michaelmaltby]

The F-105 was initially designed to come in low and fast, climb, release an A bomb (toss an A bomb) and get the hell out again, fast - ( was it not ?)

The Crusader was designed to provide the Navy with a supersonic air superiority weapon with GUNS.

Two completely different roles. Like saying which was better - the Mustang or the Skyraider.

MM

 

[Colin1]

There is a long and on-going debate on which was the best dog fighter, the F-4 or the F-8. I believe the F-8 had the best record. The F-4 was not a great dog fighter. It was big and heavy and not great at maneuvering. It did, however, have huge engines and was very fast. The F-4 was not great at any particular task, but it was good at many.

The simple fact that it never had an integrated gun really says that it was never designed with dogfighting in mind. The Phantom always struck me as a hard-accelerating bomb-hauler. Notwithstanding that, it didn't seem to fare badly in a mix.

 

[Matt308]

F-105 wing area is much too low for any meaningful dog fighting capabilities with sustained turns in the Vietnam era wherein the missile was proven less than exemplary in single shot kills.

There is a reason that they originally installed the 20mm gun pods on the centerline prior to incorporation of a gun into the airframe of the F-4.

The F-105 in an encounter was utterly reliant upon its dash speed to avoid engagement. No contest.

 

[syscom3]

Here's a cool F-105 website, if any cares.

Craig Baker's F-105 Site, The Awesome Thunderchief

 

[Glider]

The F8 was a truely remarkable aircraft capable of taking on any other fighter, of any nation, either land or naval based. Its worth remembering that the A7 attack aircraft which is one of the most undervalued aircraft of the 1960's/70's was to a certain degree based on the F8.

 

[Colin1]

There is a reason that they originally installed the 20mm gun pods on the centerline prior to incorporation of a gun into the airframe of the F-4

You are the master of suspense..

 

[davparlr]

Here's a cool F-105 website, if any cares.

Craig Baker's F-105 Site, The Awesome Thunderchief

Iron men flying metal steeds into the jaws of Hell. I have great admiration for the Thud and those who flew them. By the time I got my wings, no 105s came down in the block only F-4s, surprisingly there was an F-100. Only the guy who got that was routed to an OV-10. He was later shot down in the same action as BAT 21 and was mentioned in the book. When they brought back the POWs, I saw him get off the C-141.

I remember when I was a kid and I put together a model of the F-105. When I looked at the model from the front with no racks I thought, wow, what a sleek aircraft! It certainly was different from the F-4.

 

[Matt308]

You are the master of suspense..

No suspense meant, buddy. It was a major eff-up in the F-4 development. The centerline 20mm gatling gun was a field expedient means of addressing the gun issue. Originally approved under the auspices of ground attack (centerline and two wing pod attachment points), the real intent with the fighter community was to address lack of a gun for close MiG encounters. I don't have the book in front of me, but this was documented in the memoirs of the 336th if I recall. I've got the book upstairs, but am to lazy to get it.

 

[mikewint]

Colin1, Matt is 100%, the AF felt, at the time, that aircraft dog-fighting, was a thing of the past, air-to-air missiles launched from miles away, no risking multimillion dollar aircraft in duels. The external pods were an attempt to allow the F-4 some means of close quarter combat capability. while they worked, i.e. spat out lots of lead, without an integrated gun-sight actually hitting something was highly problematical. The problem was eventually rectified and the f-4 was a hellofa MIG killer

 

[drgondog]

Robin Olds had a great influence on the F4E with the internal gun.... but he rotated home as AF Academy Den Mother before the E got to Nam.

The F105 was still the fastest ship in the US (and everywhere else) inventory on the deck and 'check your 12' was still the cry out at Nellis in the war game exercises until the day they retired that wonderful beast.

IMO - the F8 was the best air fighter in the US inventory until the day they retired it.

Thankfully the F4 was such a versatile beast but it was always first an interceptor designed to protect the fleet. The USAF turned it into a 'weapon system' and thank god for Col John Boyd - the anarchist in the Pentagon.. he pissed a LOT of people off but we got the F-16 and F-15 primarily because of him. No more 'weapon systems' until the F-35.

Had the sidewinders and sparrows worked worth a damn all the USAF fighters would have done well as long as they stayed out of horizontal fights..

 

[drgondog]

No suspense meant, buddy. It was a major eff-up in the F-4 development. The centerline 20mm gatling gun was a field expedient means of addressing the gun issue. Originally approved under the auspices of ground attack (centerline and two wing pod attachment points), the real intent with the fighter community was to address lack of a gun for close MiG encounters. I don't have the book in front of me, but this was documented in the memoirs of the 336th if I recall. I've got the book upstairs, but am to lazy to get it.

True - I don't recall anybody hitting anything but jungle with the pod 20's -

 

[Matt308]

True - I don't recall anybody hitting anything but jungle with the pod 20's -

Actually they did. As part of the argument that Robin made to the Pentagon was the few kills that did occur with the 20mm pods "that were installed for ground strafing". According to his accounts, these kills contributed in revamping the thinking about a gun in the F-4. I've got a quote I can cite, if this post causes anyone anyone any strife.

 

[drgondog]

Actually they did. As part of the argument that Robin made to the Pentagon was the few kills that did occur with the 20mm pods "that were installed for ground strafing". According to his accounts, these kills contributed in revamping the thinking about a gun in the F-4. I've got a quote I can cite, if this post causes anyone anyone any strife.

Matt - I will look in Fighter Pilot as I remember the discussion. Interesingly, the 355th TFW was the lead MiG killer for awhile with the Thud internal 20mm M-61. IIRC 18 of their 20 MiG kills were the 20mm and two were AIM-9's

I remember a conversation between Olds, Titus and Kidd with my father.. the gist of that conversation was "Jeesus, if a Thud can kill that many with an internal 20 - just imagine what an F4 could do."

 

[Matt308]

 

[renrich]

The F8U was a true supersonic day fighter. It's forty two degree wing sweep was among the greater wing sweep designs. It had a variable incidence wing to allow better carrier landing characteristics. I was working at Temco AC, next door to Vought in 1955, and everyone was talking about that variable incidence wing. Like almost all Vought creations the Crusader had high performance for it's time but could be a handfull to fly, especially landing! It mounted four Colt MK 12 20mm cannon. The MK 12 required a lot of care and feeding. The ammunition feed system gave a lot of trouble. Sidewinder missiles could also be carried. Air to ground capability in the early Crusaders was furnished by a "rocket pack". This pack was faired into the bottom of the fuselage and had sixteen chambers that could hold up to 32 2.75 inch folding fin airborne rockets. The opportunity for disasters was great and later the packs were disabled and late model F8 did not have them. Above info from Linnekin, "Eighty Knots to Mach 2".

 

[Matt308]

I wish I could find the story, but recall reading about some early astronauts that regulary flew the F-8. They apparently would routinely make a high speed approach for landing and pull a max-G 90 turn on final. Not only would this rapidly bleed off speed, but apparently would make one hell of a noise for folks on the ground. Well the story was related because one day while performing this maneuver, both wings on the airplane sheared off at the wing root. They apparently found the fuselage with the deceased pilot still in his seat on a baseball diamond, perfectly aligned along the home plate - first base line. The astronaut relating the story said the scene was surreal because the fuselage looked undamaged and as if the pilot was just sleeping peacefully. The wreckage was sent back for testing and no fatigue cracks and manufacturing defects were found. Vought was utterly in dismay and I recall them stating that their position was the pilot must have been pulling greater than 14Gs for the wings to have sheared off in that manner.

 

[renrich]

I had a book, "Feet Wet", which was written by a retired Navy pilot whose name escapes me. I lent it out and did not get it back. Very fine book and the author had a lot of experience in the F8 with some harrowing stories. One story I recall in the book was extraordinary. The author was serving a tour in the Med on a carrier and they were doing a "blue water" practise mission at night in bad weather. "Blue Water" meant they had no option to recover at a land base. The author, who, as I remember was the CAG, had a strike package of F4s in the pattern and he was watching them recover in this bad weather and visibility on a TV closed circuit. They all got aboard on the first pass. There was a Soviet trawler shadowing them. The author got a message to come to the bridge and he went up, hoping to get an "atta boy" and not get chewed out for something. The CO handed him a slip of paper which contained a message from the Soviet trawler. It said, "Your pilots fly good". I wish I still had that book!