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I don't see how the Corsair that weighs 3000+ lbs more can out turn the Mustang...that goes against the laws of physics...
I am not saying the Corsair can out turn the Mustang (some test indicates it couldn't) but a P-61 could.
It has to do with wing area and the co-efficient of lift of the wing at the angle of attack being used in the turn vs the weight. weight alone or even wing loading alone won't tell the story.
Corsair had nearly the same wing loading as a Mustang since it's wing was about 33% bigger. What it didn't have was good coefficient of lift. In part, according to one test, due the spoiler strip on the right wing to cure the asymmetric stall.
Not against the laws of physics as I understand them but counter to what you would normally think.I don't see how the Corsair that weighs 3000+ lbs more can out turn the Mustang...that goes against the laws of physics...
1. More horsepower.I don't see how the Corsair that weighs 3000+ lbs more can out turn the Mustang...that goes against the laws of physics...
Not against the laws of physics as I understand them but counter to what you would normally think.
I have no figures but in general if it has big enough wing area and strong enough wings it can turn instantaneously quicker than a Mustang. For sustained turn it needs enough surplus thrust to drag to maintain a higher rate of turn. Total weight is an important but not deciding factor. I believe a P47 could turn with a Bf109 in combat.
it was just a joke.
from F4U-1 ACP - it optained range for internal wing tanks with drop tank at same time.
12039 lbs with 237 gal = 4.283 for no external stores.
12836 lbs with 361 gal = 4.197 for no external stores, 124 gal internal wing tanks
14003 lbs with 536 gal = 3.992 for 175 gal centerline drop tank, 124 gal internal wing tanks
12763 lbs with 536 gal = 4.142 for 175 gal centerline drop tank, 124 gal internal wing tanks, light weighted - ferry condition.
from F4U-1D ACP - 150 gallon drop tank mounted on the wing pylons shows a serious drop in miles per gallon.
12175 lbs with 237 gal = 4.135 for 2 x capped wing pylons.
14370 lbs with 537 gal = 3.529 for 2 x wing pylons with 2 x 150 gal drop tanks.
then theoretically maximum possible fuel configuration is....
use the F4U-1, 16334 lbs with 838 gal = 175 gal centerline drop tank and 2 x wing pylons with 2 x 150 gal drop tanks, plus 124 gal internal wing tanks. Not so fast.
Maximum Gross Weight for F4U-1 is theoretically 14,000 pounds, Empty Wt = 8980+ with WI; Basic Weight ~ 9670; Total Disposable Load ~ 4100 pounds. According to Dean's America's 100K, the highest table gross weight for F4U-1 was 13,900 with full internal 361 gallons of fuel, ammo and 175 gallon external tank. For F4U-4 the highest listed per Table gross weight at take-off was 14,700 pounds with 1000 pounds ordnance and 1x150 gallon C/L tank and full ammo.
yeah, over the 4000 lbs extra weight! You need to re-start at the published Max GW at Take Off Power per the tables - and you need to subtract Warm up, Taki/Take Off, Climb to Cruise and account for standard 30 minute loiter at the destination.
Maybe only 2300 pounds over max GW for -1, with 175. No proof that the -1 could carry more than the 361 internal and 175 external and take off safely and repeatedly.
So, re-do with realistic Max GW at TO? The F4U-1 R-2800-8W produced 100HP less of Take Off power than the R-2800-18W in the F4U-4.
It's like a 4000lbs challenge that lindberg did with his Corsair.
Ah, how much internal fuel and ammo for the Lindberg test? Sources? It seems BuNav did not see fit to revise ops procedures and raise Max GW at T.O. That said, I don't know what the Lindberg TO weight was. Do You?
Pilots will be in danger of taking off, can the pilot make it?
Lindberg make it with old crosswind technique of making a curving takeoff run!
That would certainly be a spectacle on a carrier. Would be interesting to see the stress analysis for a 'curving TO' on main gear in a Corsair on even a smooth concrete runway?
so now! Corsair airborne!
It is time to measure range.
start from 3.529 miles per gallon with 2 x wing pylons and 2 x 150 gal drop tanks.
No substantiation for capability for F4U-1 to Ferry with more than 1x175 gallon external? BTW the incremental Parasite drag for the incremental 175 gallon external tank and Rack is substantial - hindering MPG until the tanks are dropped. The induced drag for the increased CL required for level flight is also an increase to Total Drag
and adds the following:
- 2.0%(4.197 / 4.283) for 124 gal internal wing tanks.
- 4.9%(3.992 / 4.197) for 175 gal centerline drop tank.
result is 3.289 miles per gallon.
but I think the above factors will cause synergy.
so I will subtract 5% more.
then only 3.125 miles per gallon.
final result is...
3.125 * 838 = 2619 miles.
let's compare it to the Mustang's range.
from Mustang's Tactical Planning Characteristics & Performace Chart
Mustang with 569 gal = 2600 miles for long range power setting.
Which includes warm up, take off and climb to cruise at T.O Power - plus 30 minute reserve at destination. About 40 gallons of fuel you are not compensating for.
see? SEEEE?
CORSAIR WINS!
with approx 190 mph cruise speed at 1500 ft altitude.
See below for 'complexities' not already addressed
This is harsh, LOL
Interesting try. To get a realistic estimation you need Brequet's equations.
In this particular case, given Propeller efficiency as a Calculated known as function of RPM and Hp and Prop diameter and effective Power Coefficient; Specific Fuel Consumption rates as function of HP and velocity for different Drag conditions; and accounting for decreased weights as fuel is consumed are knowns for each condition (3x external tanks, then 1x external tank as two are dropped, then clean except racks but full internal fuel load) change L/D as step functions - as 'Knowns', then you could estimate the Range.
You reduced your presentation to extracting Gallons per mile for some of the external conditions, but that doesn't take into account the necessary changes to propeller efficiencies, as RPM/Hp changes as fuel is consumed, to attain optimal SFC for optimal cruise. You didn't account for the Delta Drag except to 'pull' mile per gallon estimates. You didn't account for velocity changes as Hp and, therefore, SFC changed. You didn't account for the Change to CL as weight and Velocity changed to maintain optimal SFC at constant altitude.
The Brequet Equation is proportional to L/D, which changes as the external drag items go way to reduce Parasite Drag and lower Induced Drag. It is also directly proportional to Velocity/SFC which changes along the flight path.
Dawncaster,
I have not done all the research yet to prove your graphs, but in
my opinion I think you did an awesome job putting them together
and posting them.
, Jeff
Interesting try. To get a realistic estimation you need Brequet's equations.
In this particular case, given Propeller efficiency as a Calculated known as function of RPM and Hp and Prop diameter and effective Power Coefficient; Specific Fuel Consumption rates as function of HP and velocity for different Drag conditions; and accounting for decreased weights as fuel is consumed are knowns for each condition (3x external tanks, then 1x external tank as two are dropped, then clean except racks but full internal fuel load) change L/D as step functions - as 'Knowns', then you could estimate the Range.
You reduced your presentation to extracting Gallons per mile for some of the external conditions, but that doesn't take into account the necessary changes to propeller efficiencies, as RPM/Hp changes as fuel is consumed, to attain optimal SFC for optimal cruise. You didn't account for the Delta Drag except to 'pull' mile per gallon estimates. You didn't account for velocity changes as Hp and, therefore, SFC changed. You didn't account for the Change to CL as weight and Velocity changed to maintain optimal SFC at constant altitude.
The Brequet Equation is proportional to L/D, which changes as the external drag items go way to reduce Parasite Drag and lower Induced Drag. It is also directly proportional to Velocity/SFC which changes along the flight path.
Posted a few years ago but worth repeating.
Americas Hundred Thousand page 600.
P51 D
Fuel 269 US gallons internal + 2 75 gallon drop tanks = Combat Radius 700miles.
Conditions:-
Warm up and take off = 5 minutes normal rated power.
Climb to 25,000ft normal rated power no distance included.
Cruise out at 25,000ft at 210. I.A.S (about 315mph)
Drop tanks.
Cruise back at 25,000ft at 210mph I.A.S
30 minutes reserve at minimum cruise.
Combat 5 minutes Wep and 15 minutes Military power.
Takes no account for decreased fuel consumption during decent.
No allowance is made for formation flight or evasive action other than 20 minutes combat.
F4U-1 Corsair (no wing tanks) I.A.W. Pilots Manual page 50 and 63
Total fuel including 154 gallon drop tank 391 gallons.
Warm up and take off 18 gallons
Climb to 25,000ft 64 gallons ( difference split between Combat climb and Ferry climb)
Combat 5 minutes wep and 15 minutes military power 91 gallons
30 minutes reserve at minimum cruise = 21 gallons
Total = 194 gallons.
391-194 = 197
197 gallons at 315mph at max cruise at 26,000ft (82 gallons per hour) 197/82 = 2.4
2.4 * 315mph = 756
756/2 = 378 miles.
F4U-1 combat radius = 378 miles.
Or in other words 54% of a P51-D.
Mustang IV Full internal fuel + 2 imp 125 gall drop tanks, 2,690 miles at 20,000ft at 253mph
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mustang/mustang-IV-ads.jpg
Corsair IV Full internal fuel + 2 137 imp gall drop tanks, 1,562 miles at 20,000ft at 261mph
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/f4u/corsair-IV-ads.jpg
Neil.
Maximum Gross Weight for F4U-1 is theoretically 14,000 pounds, Empty Wt = 8980+ with WI; Basic Weight ~ 9670; Total Disposable Load ~ 4100 pounds. According to Dean's America's 100K, the highest table gross weight for F4U-1 was 13,900 with full internal 361 gallons of fuel, ammo and 175 gallon external tank. For F4U-4 the highest listed per Table gross weight at take-off was 14,700 pounds with 1000 pounds ordnance and 1x150 gallon C/L tank and full ammo
What made the P-47 so valuable and maneuverable at 25,000-35,000 ft. was its beautiful R-2800 and
the correct high altitude supercharger. At the right power levels and these altitudes it could outturn
any Bf.109. It could not perform this feat at lower levels though.
What made the P-47 so valuable and maneuverable at 25,000-35,000 ft. was its beautiful R-2800 and
the correct high altitude supercharger. At the right power levels and these altitudes it could outturn
any Bf.109. It could not perform this feat at lower levels though.
Dawncaster,
ps. but excuse me, if I did not read wrong british performance cards, the range in stated conditions of Mustang IV seems 2190 miles instead of 2690 miles.
Look at the bottom of the page, 2690 miles is including the rear tank.
Not only aircraft, I knew a guy who tried racing a Kawasaki 750 turbo motorcycle, complete disaster, it was a great demonstration that only useable power is important, a huge output that takes one or two seconds to arrive is almost useless and very dangerous.A lot of aircraft performance, especially with supercharging is not intuitive. US aerodynamicists were also very good.