F4U vs. P-51 essay

[drgondog]

KK - those numbers resonate with my own recollections. I have not yet seen what I consider hard evidence

Also the P-51H with 160 gallon tanks (I recall 150-155 actual gallons) had the longest ferry range of 2,800 miles for all the Mustang series other than the P-82

 

[syscom3]

Kool Kitty, the 5th AF P38's often flew 3000 mile missions (1500 RT).

The longest fighter mission of the war was from the PI against Singapore, nearly 1600 miles one way.

Without ammo, and no fuel allowances for combat power, the P38L's could have reached 3300 miles with no problem at all.

 

[drgondog]

Kool Kitty, the 5th AF P38's often flew 3000 mile missions (1500 RT).

The longest fighter mission of the war was from the PI against Singapore, nearly 1600 miles one way.

Without ammo, and no fuel allowances for combat power, the P38L's could have reached 3300 miles with no problem at all.

Sounds like 3300 would have been easy for ferry based on a combat mission of 3200

 

[syscom3]

Sounds like 3300 would have been easy for ferry based on a combat mission of 3200

At one of the Chino airshows, I asked a former 475th FG pilot what it was like to fly those long range missions.

His response is unprintable!!!

 

[renrich]

In college, I had a fellow geology major who was a former Marine pilot. This was in the 1956-58 time frame and he related stories about flying 8 hour low altitude practise missions with a simulated nuke in an AD. That had to be exhausting.

 

[drgondog]

In college, I had a fellow geology major who was a former Marine pilot. This was in the 1956-58 time frame and he related stories about flying 8 hour low altitude practise missions with a simulated nuke in an AD. That had to be exhausting.

My father's log time for the Frantic VII mission over Warsaw to Piryatin was right at 8 hours - and that was with a scrap nw of Warsaw. I can't even comprehend a 3200+ mile flight/12 hr+ (I have no idea what the flight profile is for a P-38 to get that range) in a single seat airplane, in formation!

I made some long rides in an A-36 (Bonanza) from Dallas to Raliegh/Durham in a comfortable seat with auto pilot, etc - and I hated it.

 

[renrich]

Bill, I have always wondered about how much physical and mental stamina it took for the pilots of those long legged Mustangs to fly those escort missions. Just to think of sitting in that cockpit with the noise and vibration, maybe too hot or maybe too cold, on oxygen, constantly checking everything, navigating, by yourself, maybe radio silence, over enemy territory, combat, maybe damage, watching fuel, weather, imagination running wild. My hat is off to those young men.

 

[syscom3]

The P51 and P47N pilots of the 7th AF that went on the escort missions with the B29's had a tour of only 20 or so missions before being relieved, due to the physical and mental stress.

 

[drgondog]

Bill, I have always wondered about how much physical and mental stamina it took for the pilots of those long legged Mustangs to fly those escort missions. Just to think of sitting in that cockpit with the noise and vibration, maybe too hot or maybe too cold, on oxygen, constantly checking everything, navigating, by yourself, maybe radio silence, over enemy territory, combat, maybe damage, watching fuel, weather, imagination running wild. My hat is off to those young men.

Think about the ETO P-38J pilots in the winter missions as perhaps the worst conditions for a US fighter pilot. Even Alaska should not be worse as all the missions were middle to low altitudes.

 

[kool kitty89]

And the combat missions in the P-38 exceeding 1,500 mi radius could be over 12 hours! But at least in the pacific you wouldn't have to deal with cold and if it was too hot you could cruise at a higher altitude...

The P-47 would be on the opposite side for comfort, often being called an "arm chair fighter" the cockpit was comfortable, the seat was padded, and it was well heated and even had air conditioning iirc.

Besides the info from: WWII Aircraft Performance

There was some here: P-47 Thunderbolt: Aviation Darwinism - The Cradle of Aviation Museum - The Cradle of Aviation Museum

 

[drgondog]

And the combat missions in the P-38 exceeding 1,500 mi radius could be over 12 hours! But at least in the pacific you wouldn't have to deal with cold and if it was too hot you could cruise at a higher altitude...

I suspect that 90% of the mission is at one altitude, boost and rpm until they get to a R/V to pick up the bombers, then move to bomber altitude and adjust cruise settings for maximum endurance rather than maximum range - use less fuel, still faster than bombers.

Escort over target and back to Break Escort point and revert to best altitude, cruise settings for maximum range

The P-47 would be on the opposite side for comfort, often being called an "arm chair fighter" the cockpit was comfortable, the seat was padded, and it was well heated and even had air conditioning iirc.

Besides the info from: WWII Aircraft Performance

There was some here: P-47 Thunderbolt: Aviation Darwinism - The Cradle of Aviation Museum - The Cradle of Aviation Museum

Best Cruise settings have two dimensions and usually two separate altitudes.. one for max range as defined loosely speaking as 'miles per gallon' and max endurance 'time per gallon' - the latter is usually at a significantly lower speed for the 38/51 and 47/

 

[renrich]

I believe the factor that made these AD missions as arduous as they were that they were very low, below the radar, always the risk of hitting something and of course sometimes very bumpy.

 

[ghilt]

It was a proven fact that the Corsiar was superior to the Mustang..Looking back to the 70's during the Soccor Wars in South America...Not sure of the level of pilot training though...

 

[syscom3]

It was a proven fact that the Corsiar was superior to the Mustang..Looking back to the 70's during the Soccor Wars in South America...Not sure of the level of pilot training though...

The Mustang was superior to the Corsair at high altitudes.

 

[JoeB]

Kool Kitty, the 5th AF P38's often flew 3000 mile missions (1500 RT).

The longest fighter mission of the war was from the PI against Singapore, nearly 1600 miles one way.

Without ammo, and no fuel allowances for combat power, the P38L's could have reached 3300 miles with no problem at all.

The actual *unrefueled* distance of that Singapore mission though was around 830 statute miles one way, from Labuan Island off Borneo, by then (August '45) in Australian hands, to Singapore. The a/c were based in the Philippines but staged through that forward base. The late '44 P-38 missions escorting B-24's from Morotai in NEI against oil facilities at Balikpapan in Borneo were around the same one way distance, P-38 missions from Middleburg Island in NEI to Makassar on Celebes were almost 900 miles, probably longest unrefueled radius missions. Longer missions are mentioned (ca. 1000 radius), but sometimes what is quoted is the actual flight distance covered by the a/c, not two times the as-the-crow-flies radius to the target. Of course the planes would end up flying at least some extra miles, that's one reason practical straight line air mile combat radius was much less than 1/2 the ferry range. P-51's and P-47N's in late Pac War also flew very long though AFAIK not quite as long missions, for example P-47N's from Ie Shima to the Seoul area, that's around 780 miles one way, and the 348th FG is said to have flown 1600 mile round trip missions from Clark Field to China and Indochina in early 1945 when it converted to P-51D's (per Hess "Pacific Sweep").

Joe

 

[kool kitty89]

I meant the P-38's in the pacific could regulate temperature with altitude, I was talking about long-range strike missions/ fighter sweeps not escort. (as the windows couldn't be opened w/out buffetting) Plus at bomber altitiudes being too hot wouldn't be the problem, and later model P-38's had cockpit heating as well.

 

[XBe02Drvr]

I made some long rides in an A-36 (Bonanza) from Dallas to Raliegh/Durham in a comfortable seat with auto pilot, etc - and I hated it.

Try it in an unpressurized 210 non-stop MSP - PWM, 20-25K altitude at night in winter, IMC most of the way, nosebags all the way, repeatedly; I can sympathize with those escort pilots.
Cheers,
Wes

 

[drgondog]

Try it in an unpressurized 210 non-stop MSP - PWM, 20-25K altitude at night in winter, IMC most of the way, nosebags all the way, repeatedly; I can sympathize with those escort pilots.
Cheers,
Wes

Lol = Great illustration Wes, but you forgot the dingy pack and parachute to add to the comfort.

 

[swampyankee]

It was a proven fact that the Corsiar was superior to the Mustang..Looking back to the 70's during the Soccor Wars in South America...Not sure of the level of pilot training though...

It's a little more complicated than that. With supercharged, piston-engined aircraft superiority could change markedly with altitude. From what I've read - and I won't say it's definitive -- is that the Merlin-engined P-51 and Corsair were approximately equal below 8,000 ft, the Corsair was generally superior from 8,000 to 25,000 ft and the P-51 superior from 25,000 ft up.

Of course, it's difficult to argue (as in there is tons of supporting test data) that the P-51 was the cleanest (least zero-lift drag coefficient) of any WW2-era piston fighter. To toot the horn of US aerodynamicists, I think that my professional forebears in the US were the best applied aerodynamicists of the time.

 

[XBe02Drvr]

Lol = Great illustration Wes, but you forgot the dingy pack and parachute to add to the comfort.

Good point! Our flotation gear was under our seats instead of under our butts, but those Cessna pilot seats were surely designed by the Spanish Inquisition! A Switlik seat pack would just have to be softer! And a WWII style full face integral mike O2 mask more comfortable than a Cessna nosebag. And with an aircooled engine, cabin heat ain't what it's cracked up to be. The radar set, however, was awesome.
Cheers,
Wes