F8F Bearcat rate of climb

[grampi]

I think the Falconer engine could be set up for a world climb recorf attempt, but these Thunder Mustangs are all privately owned units and anyone who spends the hours required to build one wants to keep flying it. So, I think the trick would mbe to offer up two Falconer record attempt engines and assure the owner that he would have a fuinctioning engine when the fun was over, not to mention a functioning propeller.

Some owners might well want to take the change if they were using someone else's engine and prop for the attempt and if the costs were covered.

The trick would be to come up with the ~$750,000 USD for the record attempt plus the money for the race engines and prop, plus costs for the record attempt for the crew and owner.

If there is anyone out there who wants to attempy it and has a spare $2M USD, let us know and we can find a Thunder Mustang ownewre willing to give it a try.

I guess I don't understand why the cost of making a record breaking attempt is so high...and I'm not talking about the cost of the aircraft, or the things that are done to the aircraft (that stuff has always been expensive), I'm talking about the cost of the organization or agency responsible for timing, recording, and verifying the attempt...what's the expense? I realize it's not just a couple of guys with a stop watch and pair of binoculars, but $750K? That's just nuts!

 

[GregP]

The FIA guys don;t work for nothing. You pay their costs for transportation, lodging, meals, incidentals, rent-a-cars, etc, plus their fees. You have to rent a suitable course (NOT cheap) and it has tro be equipped with specified equipment accurate enough to measure the records being sought. You pay for the site, the equipment, and the people to run the equipments, plus the witnesses. You pay for your own team's time, lodging, meals, vars, gas, laundry, etc.

By the time you are done, it is well over $800k - $1.5M US dollars. Ay least taht's what it was going to cost for the Strega attempt at a world speed record, so they scrapped the plans and never made the attempt despite that fact that Strega can hit 540 mph any day of the week in a straight line.

The reason more records aren't attempted is the cost. It USED to be much easier and MUCH cheaper, and then technology came around and now the powers that be want their precious records verified by the best instruments money can buy or rent. Makes record attmpts many fewer and farther between.

 

[grampi]

The FIA guys don;t work for nothing. You pay their costs for transportation, lodging, meals, incidentals, rent-a-cars, etc, plus their fees. You have to rent a suitable course (NOT cheap) and it has tro be equipped with specified equipment accurate enough to measure the records being sought. You pay for the site, the equipment, and the people to run the equipments, plus the witnesses. You pay for your own team's time, lodging, meals, vars, gas, laundry, etc.

By the time you are done, it is well over $800k - $1.5M US dollars. Ay least taht's what it was going to cost for the Strega attempt at a world speed record, so they scrapped the plans and never made the attempt despite that fact that Strega can hit 540 mph any day of the week in a straight line.

The reason more records aren't attempted is the cost. It USED to be much easier and MUCH cheaper, and then technology came around and now the powers that be want their precious records verified by the best instruments money can buy or rent. Makes record attmpts many fewer and farther between.

It's too bad the cost is so high as there would probably be more attempts, and more new records being set all the time. I think Rear Bear's speed record would've been bested years ago as there have been faster planes (like Strega and Dago Red) since that record was set. Breaking Bear's climb record wouldn't be so easy, and if another plane did break that record, I'm sure Bear would be able to set a new record...but with costs being so high, many of the records will stand even though there are planes that can beat those records...

 

[GregP]

Yeah. Seems like the people who sanction world records want to make a huge profit from ANY new record these days instead of merely track the progress.

Perhaps somone should start a NEW organization with the aim oif restoring low-cost attempts at world records recognized by that body. Once a few of the present-day world records have been beaten and recognized, the new group would have instant repectability by virtue of having verified faster records at much lower prices. The cost of the course won't change much unless the new orgainzation owns some land in various places that are receptive to world records for a particular sport, but the number of people reuired to set a new record could be cut in half, and the fees could be made more reasonable by a small organization. The costs could easily be half or less of what it costs now.

 

[tomo pauk]

Sorry for such a late reply

Looks to me that WER in second S/C gear was not running on full RPM.

Supercharger doesn't have a choice does it? if it is in high gear it is turning 9.45 times as fast the crankshaft. You can close the throttle plate to restrict the boost/power.

The thing is that S/C will supply less of the compressed air in case it's rotating speed is lower, and it will be turning on slower rate when the crankshaft is also rotating slower. Less compressed air - less power at altitude. We can remember that BMW 801C did also featured restricted RPM in higher gear, for the highest power setting. So did initially the 2-stage R-1830, for military power?

 

[Barrett]

Late to this thread, and I've not read all the screens.
Will just say:
I knew Butch Davenport who set the climb record at the air races in 1946. Unfortunately, we either talked VF-17, Corsairs, or hunting most of the time. I did not think to ask him if the Cleveland aircraft was fully loaded.

Also: Rich Leonard Could be a fine source on the subject. IIRC his dad Bill (of honored memory) set the record the day before Butch, possibly due to air density difference.

 

[GregP]

Out climb?

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mustang/p-51h-booklet-pg15.jpg

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mustang/F-51H_Mustang_SAC_-_22_March_1949.pdf

Granted you may have to thrash the P-51H harder to get the performance and I doubt anybody outside of Reno is going to run a modern P-51H (if one is flying) at anywhere near 90in MAP.

Perhaps the Bearcat rolled better?
The Bearcat has about 3% more wing area. (thats gross, net wing area may be different). weights clean are within a few hundred pounds of each other, Mustang may be lighter, it may depend on WHICH F8F but I don't know.
Turn is not 100% dependent on wing loading but it seems the two are very close.

I doubt the "H" could out climb the Bearcat except in rare circumstances but the "H" is a much closer performer to the Bearcat (-1 model) than the "D".

Hi Shortround.

I don't know ANYONE who flies a warbirds at WER today. I don't know any warbird pilot who HAS flown at wartime WEP rating.

Private ownership, no 150 PN fuel to use for the task, scarce parts that are expensive. MANY reasons not to thrash a nice warbird, not the least of which is the lack of practice landing a dead stick warbird should the engine fail in the attempt ...

If you WANTED to try a WER comparison, I doubt you could find any owner who would agree to doing it or letting it be done with their pet warbird. If I owned one and someone wanted to try a WER test, my answer would be no. If YOU owned one, I bet it would be no, too.

 

[SaparotRob]

Heck, mine would be wrapped in bubble wrap.

 

[GregP]

It's too bad the cost is so high as there would probably be more attempts, and more new records being set all the time. I think Rear Bear's speed record would've been bested years ago as there have been faster planes (like Strega and Dago Red) since that record was set. Breaking Bear's climb record wouldn't be so easy, and if another plane did break that record, I'm sure Bear would be able to set a new record...but with costs being so high, many of the records will stand even though there are planes that can beat those records...

Actually, in a straight line, Rare Bear and Strega are quire close in performance. Strega is better around the egg-shaped course at Reno, but speed records are straight-line things. Not too sure which one is faster in a straight line when everything is working correctly.

 

[spicmart]

How much of the Bearcat's climb rate can attributed to its wing/profile? I imagine it to be a high lift profile.
Would it have been as good if with another airfoil, maybe a Spitfire's or a laminar one?

 

[Shortround6]

How much of the Bearcat's climb rate can attributed to its wing/profile? I imagine it to be a high lift profile.
Would it have been as good if with another airfoil, maybe a Spitfire's or a laminar one?

Climb doesn't have a lot to do with either lift or drag of the wing.
Not saying it doesn't have any effect at all but most fighters had best rate of climb airspeed of around 160-180mph.
This depends on speed at which the drag curves (profile drag vs lift drag) cross over giving the most available power to use for climb. Some planes were often climbed 10-20mph faster for more stability.
Bearcats just had a huge amount of power, especially if they were allowed to use WEP.
Even with 100/130 octane they had 2200-2300hp at sea level falling to about 1700hp at 10,000ft in low gear of the engine used in an F8F-1. If taking off at 9000-9500lbs that is a pretty good power to weight ratio.
Subtract power needed to fly at either 160mph or 180mph and that is power to weight ratio that you are dealing with.
Mustang may have less drag but it does not have anywhere near the extra power at 160-180mph that the F8F-1 had.
Spitfire can come close but you need a Griffon powered Spitfire for power and you need a two stage Griffon to really have it work but then you have planes that while lighter than Bearcat, are still several hundred HP lower. Spit XIVE is a little backwards, it gains power as it climbs to 10,000ft while the Bearcat looses power. SO the Bearcat starts with a 400hp advantage (?) but by 10,000ft it is around 300hp behind? Where is the cross over?