Favorite fighter/interceptor?

[kool kitty89]

What about the Fw 190A-9?

I'll go with the P-47 as my favorite though. P-47D, M, N, for general-purpose/multirole, interceptor, and long-range escort. (plus there's the XP-47J...)

Thinking of versitillity though, the P-51 was a good high-altitude escort (and very fuel efficient) and decent fighter-bomber, but overall the P-38, P-47, and Fw 190 series were more vesitile fighters imo.

 

[Soren]

LMFAO Bill !

 

[kool kitty89]

What's that a response to Soren???

 

[Soren]

Bill just made some very funny remarks

I agree with his post.

 

[renrich]

If we are talking about the most effective interceptor in WW2 I pick the Me 262. It did not have the most kills of bombers but when it was operating it was almost unstoppable. It must have struck fear into the hearts of bomber crew in Europe. It would have effective against the B29 also. In Europe the interceptor that probably had the most kills would probably have been some model of the FW190 although Chris may have knowledge that shows the Bf109 to be supreme there. I don't know about overall WW2 numbers of bomber kills but in the Pacific I am sure that the Hellcat was the champion there with more bomber kills than any other AC(including kamikzes) and the Hellcat may be the bomber killing champion of the whole war.

 

[drgondog]

If we are talking about the most effective interceptor in WW2 I pick the Me 262. It did not have the most kills of bombers but when it was operating it was almost unstoppable. It must have struck fear into the hearts of bomber crew in Europe. It would have effective against the B29 also. In Europe the interceptor that probably had the most kills would probably have been some model of the FW190 although Chris may have knowledge that shows the Bf109 to be supreme there. I don't know about overall WW2 numbers of bomber kills but in the Pacific I am sure that the Hellcat was the champion there with more bomber kills than any other AC(including kamikzes) and the Hellcat may be the bomber killing champion of the whole war.

Rich - that would be interesting research.

I suspect that both the Fw 190 AND the Me 109 would be at the top simply because the RAF, VVS, and USAAF combined lost a lot more bombers than the Japanese had in their entire inventory. IIRC the total awards for the F6F were in the 5000 range - of which I would be equally suprised that 2000 were bombers. Their foes were largely IJN which tended to torps and dive bombers while the IJA had the Betty's etc. Marines and USAAF took on more of the latter than the USN, didn't they?

I would 'guess' that the both the Me 109 and the Fw 190 in all their variants were close to that number on B-17s,24s, 25s, 26s across 8th/9th/12th and 15th AF?

Don't know for sure but suspect it would be true, and who knows how many RAF medium and light bombers were shot down from North Africa, all across the Med and around the ETO?

I wonder who might have an answer to that?

I would have picked the Me 262 for defensive role but leaned to Ta 152 based on near 262 (about the same delta as between a P-40N and a P-51D at 25,000 feet) performance plus range plus payload.

So a Ta 152 could be used as a high speed long range escort, long range interceptor, fighter bomber, long range fighter recon, etc where the 262 is unstoppable as a shorter range fighter.

 

[renrich]

Bill, you are right, in that the number of kills the Hellcat had in the Pacific was 5257 with 1445 being bombers. I don't know if, for instance, a Zeke being used as a kamikaze counts as a fighter or bomber. Interestingly F4U had less than half the kills of the Hellcat but a much higher proportion of the kills were fighters and it dropped a lot more bombs. I read somewhere on this forum that F4Us dropped 70 % of all bombs dropped by US fighters in WW2. Is that possible? Actually, if Allied fighters in the ETO had had the opportunity to be interceptors (good that they did not) I believe I would pick the P38L as the premier interceptor. By late 1944, it was the weapon it was designed to be with all the bugs out, deadly firepower, great high altitude performance and could have stayed up a long time to shoot down many bombers. Few escort fighters could have competed with it at high altitudes.

 

[plan_D]

I believe the Spitfire XIVe to be superior to the P-38L as an interceptor; it was just as quick to 20,000 feet (7 minutes for both, if I remember correctly) as the Lightning and would be more comfortable in and amongst the enemy escorts if they were encountered. The Spitfire had good firepower with 2x20mm Hispano Mk.II and two Browning M2 .50 cal. The only advantage of the P-38 would be the extended time in the battle, but this would not be as important in an intercept.

 

[drgondog]

I believe the Spitfire XIVe to be superior to the P-38L as an interceptor; it was just as quick to 20,000 feet (7 minutes for both, if I remember correctly) as the Lightning and would be more comfortable in and amongst the enemy escorts if they were encountered. The Spitfire had good firepower with 2x20mm Hispano Mk.II and two Browning M2 .50 cal. The only advantage of the P-38 would be the extended time in the battle, but this would not be as important in an intercept.

Plan_D - I would offer one reason why I would want the P-38L as an interceptor. Huge differences in range.

I feel the Luftwaffe failed to press US Daylight raids at earliest opportunity, even with nuisance attacks, to attempt to force long range escorts to drop external fuel prematurely. If the LW had the Ta 152 much earlier or even a P-38L with very long loiter time, they could have put them over the Channel on the Border as the bombers were forming up.. possibly even attacked from high altitude during the formation assembly process and put enormous strain on planning for 8th and 9th AF Fighter Command and RAF Fighter Command?

To me the climb rate to 20,000 feet is interesting but less important with good radar coverage giving more reaction time. In the case of US daylight attacks a simple brief burst on a radio transmitter near American airfields during engine start process would have been better than radar.. could time the Formation Assembly almost by the clock from Engine Start Time on the mission plan.

Secondly, I can't think of any bombers the luftwaffe had that didn't fall very nicely to a simple ol' battery of 4x .50s on the P-51B when they caught Ju 88, He 111, He 177, Do 217s while roaming the east German countryside.

The Spit battery of 4x20s absolutely better in my mind but the 2x20 plus .303 would be slightly lower preference for me.

Last, I like the P-38 firepower concentration factor of all 5 weapons having essentially a 24" diameter cone of fire and complete ballistic convergence from 0 feet to 300-400 yards. I suspect the effect for the me 109G/K was better than expected with the central battery, even though slowed in rate of fire with respect to P-38, by prop synchronization requirements?

Both great ships, but for Interception I would go with the P-38L over any US conventional fighter for the reasons noted...

 

[Freebird]

Hmmm... This kinda topic has been done so many times before, but I will chime in to get ur re-thread going some...

I was curious to ask the mods/members, has there been a poll done of best low-level fighter-interceptor? Say under 10,000 feet?

 

[renrich]

According to my source the fastest US fighter at sea level was the F4u4. 380 mph. We know it was a formidable kamikaze interceptor as that AC was what the Navy loaded up with near the end when the kamikazes predominated. If it were eligible the F8F would have been a star because of it's high speed and rate of climb.

 

[Soren]

The FW-190 Dora is definitely one of the best performing a/c at 0 to 10,000 ft, with a SL top speed of 382.5 mph and 4,430 ft/min climb rate.

 

[Freebird]

The FW-190 Dora is definitely one of the best performing a/c at 0 to 10,000 ft, with a SL top speed of 382.5 mph and 4,430 ft/min climb rate.

How does that compare with a Typhoon or The F4U?

What other aircraft were there in 1941 or 1942 that specialized or excelled in low-level ops?
(I know about the clipped wing Spit's, I wonder if there were others)

 

[Soren]

The FW-190 Dora is slightly faster and climbs slightly faster than the F4U-4. The same applies against the Tempest. (The Typhoon is too slow for comparison)

In 1941-42 the FW-190A is unrivalled in terms low alt performance.

 

[Freebird]

The FW-190 Dora is slightly faster and climbs slightly faster than the F4U-4. The same applies against the Tempest. (The Typhoon is too slow for comparison)

In 1941-42 the FW-190A is unrivalled in terms low alt performance.

I thought the Typhoon was in the high 300's when close to sea level?

 

[Soren]

The Typhoon had a max speed of 342 mph at SL in 1942. In 1943 it seems to have moved on to 352 mph.

 

[renrich]

At sea level in 1942 the F4U1 was the fastest of all US fighters at about 350 mph. At 5000 feet the Allison Mustang took over getting up to 390 mph before it's supercharger gave out. Late in the war another good low altitude performer was the P63.

 

[drgondog]

According to my source the fastest US fighter at sea level was the F4u4. 380 mph. We know it was a formidable kamikaze interceptor as that AC was what the Navy loaded up with near the end when the kamikazes predominated. If it were eligible the F8F would have been a star because of it's high speed and rate of climb.

The 51H at full combat load, no external tanks, was flight tested at 401mph at SL with climb rate of 4700fpm from SL to 2200 feet. North American tests in mid 1945 had it at 410 mph at SL and 5100fpm max climb rate - but I haven't been able to find my files on that.

It was in production and in operational squadrons in March so only lagged the Ta 152 by a couple of months, depending on whether you think either the H-0 or H-1 was a production quality fighter

BTW - on the D-9 here is what Caldwell had from the III./JG54 pilots in December

Donald Caldwell wrote of the FW 190 D-9's operational debut in his The JG 26 War Diary Volume Two 1943-1945i (pages 388 – 399):

17 December: The Second Gruppe pilots returned to the front and their new base at Nördhorn-Clausheide in seventy-four Fw 190D-9s, their numbers bolstered by twenty brand-new pilots. The pilot's opinions of the "long-nosed Dora", or Dora-9, as it was variously nicknamed, were mixed. The new model was intended to correct the Fw 190's most glaring weakness, its poor high altitude performance. What came out of Kurt Tank's shop was a compromise. Tank did not like the liquid-cooled Jumo 213A engine, but it was the best choice available. The long in-line engine had to be balanced by a lengthened rear fuselage to maintain the proper center of gravity, making the Fw 190D four feet longer than the Fw 190A. The new airplane lacked the high turn rate and incredible rate of roll of its close-coupled radial-engined predecessor. It was a bit faster, The however, with a maximum speed of 680 km/h (422 mph) at 6600 meters (21,650 feet).Its 2240 horespower with methanol-water injection (MW 50) gave it an excellent acceleration in combat situations. It also climbed and dived more rapidly than the Fw 190A, and so proved well suited to the dive-and-zoom ambush tactics favored by the Schlageter pilots. Many of the early models were not equipped with tanks for methanol, which was in very short supply in any event. At low altitude, the top speed and acceleration of these examples were inferior to those of Allied fighters. Hans Hartigs recalled that only one of the first batch of Dora-9s received by the First Gruppe had methanol-water injection, and the rest had a top speed of only 590 km/h (360 mph).

18 December: The First Gruppe reported a strength of 52 190As and 28 Fw 190 D-9's… The Second Gruppe flew its first mission in its Dora-9s, but failed to contact the enemy.

23 December: The Second Gruppe flew its first Fw 190D-9 mission.

24 December: The first combat mission for the new Fw 190 D-9s of the First Gruppe was an attempted interception of the heavy bombers.

25 December: The First Gruppe reported in the morning that only nine of its Focke-Wulfs were serviceable. The Stab and the 2nd and 3rd Staffeln were taken off operations to train in the Fw 190 D-9.

III/JG 54 returned to the combat zone, still led by Hptm. Robert Weiss, a member of JG 26 back in the glory day on the Kanalfront. […] The unit had been built up to its full strength of sixty-eight FW 190D-9s.

26 December: The biggest news the returning pilots had for their comrades was the Mustang's superiority in speed and acceleration to their Dora 9s.
27 December: Despite its long absence from the front for training, there were still doubts as to the combat-worthiness of III/JG 54. Today a familiarization flight over Münster basin was ordered for all four of the Staffeln. […] III/JG 54 lost five aircraft destroyed and one damaged; three pilots were killed and two were injured.

29 December: The First Gruppe stood down to conduct intensive training in their Fw 190D-9s; 120 flights were made... The Green Hearts were fully engaged today; this would go down in the history of III/JG 54 as its schwarze Tag (black day).


No editorial comment on the Dora but it points out the difference between flight test results and operations results

 

[renrich]

Would it not be true that operational performance would always lag behind the performance predicted by the manufacturer? My graphs show that the P63A was the fastest sealevel AAF fighter at about 375 mph, with the P51D coming in at about 368 mph and the P51B being a shade faster. The P51H is not shown. I don't have any performance data on the F8F except that Linnekin in "80 Knots to Mach II" states that the Bearcat, especially the F8F1, were honest 440-450 mph aircraft at low altitudes and he states that a milestone Bearcat performnce record was from a standing start on the runway to 10000 feet was done in approx a minute and a half. He also talks of staying with a Vampire on the deck. I wonder what happened to the P51H as far as warbirds and air racing are concerned. I believe a heavily modified Bearcat holds the piston engine speed record. One would think an H model Mustang would be a candidate for that. Looking at the speeds these modified warbird air racers achieve, makes me wonder about all the performance numbers we see quoted on production WW2 fighters.

 

[Soren]

I am puzzled by that article Bill and find it very suspect, esp. since every FW190 pilot having flown both types (Including all the test-pilots) make it very clear that the Dora-9 turned climbed allot better than any version of the Anton and was much faster as-well, an improvement which was very much appreciated by the frontline units who gave similar praise and told how they now comfortably could stay and fight the Mustang at high altitude.

Furthermore in actual comparative tests the Dora-9 out-turned, out-climbed and out-accelerated the A-8 easily according to the test pilots. Anything else would also be wierd as by looking at the aerodynamics the Dora-9 clearly has the advantage.

In short, Caldwell is talking trash and knows nothing of what he's talking about as all the vets, experts physics tell a much different story from the one told by Caldwell in that article.

This is ofcourse not your fault Bill, I'm just letting you know that the article is pure BS.

PS: Note how the figures are screwed up as-well, using the 2,240 HP figure.