favorite gunner position in a b 17

[Readie]

Top gunner- can't think of anything yet, but there's gotta be something bad about it.

Were most of the LW attacks from underneath / rear / front ?
Maybe the Top gunner was the safest place? 'safe' being a relative term of course.
Cheers
John

 

[Matt308]

Okay, I promise to post the info tomorrow on Luftwaffe favorite attack directions, B-17 casualty rates by positoin and B-17 gunner accuracy rankings by 8th AF. I know I have it somewhere. But tyrodtom, I'm not liking the rear gunner position for the same reason I wouldn't like the claustrophobic ball turret position... comfort. If I recall correctly the tail gunner position is a combination small seat/bench that you kneel on with your knees. Not a seat exactly, but a chiropractic form of corporal punishment. That sounds like hell no matter how much padding they put on that bench.

 

[tyrodtom]

I forgot about the tail gunners sort of bicycle seat-kneepad sort of position, had to be pretty uncomfortable after hours kneeling in the cold.
And the ball turret gunners position, with you cojones presented to the world, maybe that's what the armor on the ball turret was to try and make up for, that very psycologically vunerable position the ball turret gunner was in.

 

[GrauGeist]

The only two areas of armor aboard a B-17 would be the ball and the glass plate in the tail-gunner's position...and even then, this was in the later Cheyenne version...otherwise, you had aluminum skin and the occasional structural rib to protect you from MG. and cannon rounds (not to mention flak)

 

[Readie]

Crew Positions

By way of a comparison and not a thread de-railer...have a quick look at the gun positions of a Lancaster compared to a Flying Fortress.
I cannot help wondering why so many B17's were shot down when they so heavily armed.

Tail end charlie was the main defensive position of the Lancaster.
What do you guys consider to be the 'main defensive position' on a B17?

Cheers
John

 

[tyrodtom]

I think it would be the tail gunner also. If the Luftwaffe pilots knew a B-17's tailgun position was out, no other gunner position could fire on them, he could stay above the ball turret's line of fire, but behind that tall tail , so the upper gunner couldn't fire, and neither waist gun could fire close to straight back.
As long as he stayed in that cone that could only be fired on by the tailgunner, he could stay back there and fire at his leisure, no deflection problems for him to figure out either.
The only fire he'd have to worry about is the other B-17s.

 

[Readie]

I think it would be the tail gunner also. If the Luftwaffe pilots knew a B-17's tailgun position was out, no other gunner position could fire on them, he could stay above the ball turret's line of fire, but behind that tall tail , so the upper gunner couldn't fire, and neither waist gun could fire close to straight back.
As long as he stayed in that cone that could only be fired on by the tailgunner, he could stay back there and fire at his leisure, no deflection problems for him to figure out either.
The only fire he'd have to worry about is the other B-17s.

That makes sense Tom. I hadn't thought about the top turret not being to bear on a rear target.
Cheers
John

 

[Njaco]

You do know that the nose position was primarily the Luftwaffe's favorite target also, right?

I'm not so sure. The "12 O'Clock High" position was used but it took nerves of steel and you only had about 3 seconds of firing time. Towards the end of the war even the raw pilots wouldn't try it. I think the most used area to attack by the LW was the rear - from the early attacks to Sturmbock attacks and from Gefechsverband ( I think thats how its spelled!) and jet attacks to even the once used ramming attacks on 7 April 1945 where they were told to fly from underneath and clip the tail.

 

[Capt. Vick]

I would pick the waist position. Somehow I just figure if it hit the fan I could get out through the waist window at least.

 

[stug3]

Im a big chicken and I wouldnt want to be in a bomber crew in any capacity.

 

[drgondog]

Simple in a couple of cases. If you were flt engineer - you ARE the top turret gunner. Radioman/communications = radio hatch. Bombardier = chin turret. IIRC most Ball gunners volunteered for the position - some rejected because too big. Average Ball turret gunner 130 pounds.

 

[Matt308]

Yep it was a very tight fit.

 

[Bernhart]

haven't been 130 lbs since grade school...

 

[Poor Old Spike]

The waist positions look well protected.
And a guy in the perspex nose would have a lot of armour behind him down the length of the fuselage, but if the Luftwaffe came in head-on he wouldn't stand a chance

 

[tyrodtom]

Most of that armor is set up to protect from rear attacks, could actually make things worse if the attack's from the front.
I wonder is armor placement was changed on the later models, when frontal attacks became more common ?

 

[drgondog]

No.

 

[Junglerot]

There is some interesting data at 8th Air Force Combat Losses in World War II ETO Against the AXIS Powers on casualties by crew postion. this data seems to indicte that the top turret was the safest position in the ship. High POW numbers indicate (to me anyway) ability to survive serious damage to ship and ability to safely bailout. Low WIA numbers speak for themselves. I don't think KIA numbers inform the discussion because of instances where ships go down with entire crews.

 

[Swede Ware]

A little later in the ETO, B-24's started adding armor on the exterior of the cockpit.

 

[gruad]

I'm not so sure. The "12 O'Clock High" position was used but it took nerves of steel and you only had about 3 seconds of firing time. Towards the end of the war even the raw pilots wouldn't try it. I think the most used area to attack by the LW was the rear - from the early attacks to Sturmbock attacks and from Gefechsverband ( I think thats how its spelled!) and jet attacks to even the once used ramming attacks on 7 April 1945 where they were told to fly from underneath and clip the tail.

I believe the Frontal attack required much more pilot skill. Attack from the rear allowed attacks in Groups too.

Miltary History Visualised has done some work on this.