Flying the Messerschmitt Bf-109E - by Rob Erdos, Vintage Wings of Canada

[claidemore]

Found this article this morning. Very interesting and enlightening. Photos are great too.

Bouncing Clouds

 

[comiso90]

Cool.. thats PBFoots guy...

Is that the one who clipped a telephone line recently and almost destroyed an original BF 109?

 

[pbfoot]

Cool.. thats PBFoots guy...

Is that the one who clipped a telephone line recently and almost destroyed an original BF 109?

Nope guy fills in occasionally

 

[Glider]

Probably the best description I have read on what its like to fly a 109.

Many Thanks

 

[diddyriddick]

Very cool! Thanks, claidemore!

 

[BikerBabe]

Neat, thanks for sharing.
And there's a few other very interesting reads on that site:

"After the fact - the benefit of a post-flight walkaround"
"Checking Out - flying the vintage single-seaters"
"A Boy in a Hurricane - Fulfilling a Dream"
"Moving Up by the Wartime Route - Becoming a Spitfire pilot"
"Glorious Fun - Flying the WACO Taperwing"
"Hurricane Season - Flying the Hawker Hurricane"
"The Harvard Graduate - first solo in the Harvard"
"Goodnight Sweetheart - the last flight of a WACO biplane"
"Flying the Spitfire with Mike Potter"
"Flying the Tiger Moth with Dave Hadfield"
"Flying the Mustang with Tim Leslie"
"Flying the Hurricane with Rob Erdos"
"Flying the Fox Moth with Dave Hadfield"
"How not to Ground Loop a Harvard"
"Flying the Corsair with Doug Matthews"
"Nimrod: The Mighty Hunter - flying the Hawker Nimrod Biplane Fighter"
"On Yellow Wings - flying the Tiger Moth"

Time to sign up for yet another newsletter, methinks.

 

[gumbyk]

Thanks Claidemore,
very interesting read

 

[Soren]

I find Mark Hanna Skip Holm's accounts more enlightening, and also more accurate given their much longer flying time in the a/c. According to both it is easy to do a 5 G pullout at 500 km/h with ONE hand. Only difference is they fly (flew in the case of Hanna) the Bf-109G and not the Emil like this guy.

Mark Hanna:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3897/is_199912/ai_n8870616/

Skip Holm:
http://www.skipholm.com/willy-messerschmitt.htm

 

[timshatz]

That is amazing that the 109E was so tough to get out of a power dive. 3.5G pullout using both hands? Sheesh.

 

[Soren]

I'm just trying to figure out what difference between the later variants and the Emil made them so much easier to pull out of a dive than the Emil.

 

[claidemore]

I find Mark Hanna Skip Holm's accounts more enlightening, and also more accurate given their much longer flying time in the a/c. According to both it is easy to do a 5 G pullout at 500 km/h with ONE hand. Only difference is they fly (flew in the case of Hanna) the Bf-109G and not the Emil like this guy.

Mark Hanna:
Flying the Bf 109: Two experts give their reports | Flight Journal | Find Articles at BNET

Skip Holm:
Skip Holm

I don't really think the later variants were easier to pull out of a dive Soren. It's just 3 different impressions of flying it, and our interpretation of those impressions.

From Skip Holm:

The roll rate is very good and very positive at 250 mph. Above 250 mph the ailerons get heavy and at 300 they are very similar to a P-51. Any speed after that results in the ailerons getting fairly solid and you need two hands on the stick for any meaningful roll rates.

Pitch force tends to get heavy at speeds above 300 mph, but is still easily managed with a little 2-hand pull or left hand re-trimming.

From Mark Hanna:

When you maneuver above 500km/h, two hands are required for a more aggressive performance. Either that or get on the trimmer to help. Despite this heavying up, it is still quite easy to get 5G at these speeds.

If you combine Holms' 2nd quote and Hannas' quote, you might conclude a 5G ONE hand pullout, but that's a pretty liberal interpretation. All three pilots talk about having to use 2 hands though. Historic accounts talk about the 109s good aerobatic qualities at lower speeds, my impression was always that the controls got extremely heavy at higher speeds than these guys would ever push one of those valuable and rare planes.

 

[Soren]

Well there are several things which strike me as odd about his story, esp. his claim that speed dropped at an unusually high rate when the slats popped out, which he claims is because the slats add a lot of extra drag. In reality however the slats don't really add any extra drag at all, not anymore than the increase in wing area they represent causes atleast (which means very little to none at all). In turn they increase the Clmax by 25%, which causes an increase in induced drag, which is the only form of drag which is increased as it closely follows the production of lift. And that is what makes automatic slats such ingenious devices and the reason they were put on virtually all fighters after the war. So the drop in speed he was experiencing probably had something to do with the problems he had managing the engine prop. Also comparing it to the much more power Spitfire IX is abit odd.

 

[pbfoot]

"Rob Erdos is an experimental test pilot and graduate of the US Naval Test Piloting School. He has a degree in Mechanical Engineering, and holds both fixed-wing and helicopter Air Transport Licences. He recieved his wings in the Canadian Air Force, and flew operationally as a Search and Rescue Pilot, followed by a tour as an engineer test pilot with the Aerospace Engineering Test Establishment, in Cold Lake, Alberta. He is now with the Flight Research Laboratory of the National Research Council of Canada, and is engaged in research flight testing in handling qualities, performance and airborne systems. He is interested in homebuilt and sport aircraft"

I believe him more then your book "learning" Soren I watched the whole flight evolve from the briefing to debriefing but unlike yourself I listen as opposed to pretending to know > thats how you learn

 

[Glider]

The problem seems to have been if you let the speed drop too far. Hanna made a similar point
The '109 is one of the most controllable aircraft that I have flown at slow speed around finals, and provided you don't get too slow is one of the easiest to three point. It just feels right ! The only problem is getting it too slow. If this happens you end up with a very high sink rate, very quickly and absolutely no ability to check or flare to round out. It literally falls out of your hands !

If you abuse any aircraft then it will bite you.

An almost uncontrolled sink rate on landing is a horrible feeling.

 

[timshatz]

I'm just trying to figure out what difference between the later variants and the Emil made them so much easier to pull out of a dive than the Emil.

Good question. The tail was redesigned some after the E. F through K had one without the struts. Must've been some work done to make the elevators more effective across the board.

Anybody have an overhead shot of the tails of the E and later variants that they can post?

 

[timshatz]

An almost uncontrolled sink rate on landing is a horrible feeling.

"Oh ****, oh ****, oh ****...BAM...ugggghhhh I look like an idiot, hope nobody was watching"

 

[Soren]

"Rob Erdos is an experimental test pilot and graduate of the US Naval Test Piloting School. He has a degree in Mechanical Engineering, and holds both fixed-wing and helicopter Air Transport Licences. He recieved his wings in the Canadian Air Force, and flew operationally as a Search and Rescue Pilot, followed by a tour as an engineer test pilot with the Aerospace Engineering Test Establishment, in Cold Lake, Alberta. He is now with the Flight Research Laboratory of the National Research Council of Canada, and is engaged in research flight testing in handling qualities, performance and airborne systems. He is interested in homebuilt and sport aircraft"

I believe him more then your book "learning" Soren I watched the whole flight evolve from the briefing to debriefing but unlike yourself I listen as opposed to pretending to know > thats how you learn

And I believe Skip Holm who has great experience flying the 109 more than anyone who just stepped into the cockpit and flew it once. Cause unlike yourself I appreciate facts.

 

[Glider]

"Oh ****, oh ****, oh ****...BAM...ugggghhhh I look like an idiot, hope nobody was watching"

Everybody was watching, but the idiot was the person who chased the sheep onto the landing area when I was on finals.

 

[pbfoot]

And I believe Skip Holm who has great experience flying the 109 more than anyone who just stepped into the cockpit and flew it once. Cause unlike yourself I appreciate facts.

Yep met him also he also flew the 109e4 I asked him about F105s heres apic taken with my 5.1 pos with skip flying.

 

[Soren]

That's a fine picture, thanks for sharing it, Skip is the man when it comes to the 109, I trust him more than anyone on the bird.