Focke Wulf 190

[Writer]

I have read a lot about the FW 190 and have written a book: "The RAF's Cross Channel Offensive", (Pen and Sword publishing, UK), which featured the aircraft in many times. It was a formidable machine and I still have a couple of queries concerning its history, which some members of this forum might be able to help me with:

Firstly, Oberleutnant Arnim Faber, the adjutant of III/JG2 landed at RAF Pembrey in South Wales on June 23, 1942 and his FW190A-3 was captured and then evaluated by the RAF. What I'm interested in is the fact that Faber claimed that, after an encounter with Spitfires over England, he'd got lost and believed that he was landing in France after thinking that he'd been over the English/French Channel, whereas in fact he'd mistaken the Bristol Channel, further north than the English Channel and had then flown north until he flew over Wales. Being low on fuel, he had landed at the first airfield that he had found, which turned out to be Pembrey. Here's where things get strange.... No matter whether over the English or the Bristo Channel, Faber should have headed South East to reach France, whereas he actually headed north. Why was this? Was he lost or was he defecting? No account that I have read addresses this fundamental mistake.

Secondly, All the books that I have read state that the Spitfire, in all its various marks, could out turn any FW 190. But Johnnie Johnson, Britain's top scoring ace, who flew Spitfires throughout the war, states that on 19th August, 1942, during the operation over Dieppe, he was flying a Stitfire Mk V and was comprehensively out-turned by an FW 190, only escaping by diving down to sea level and flying over a nearby destroyer, whose anti aircraft guns scared the 190 off. How could this have been? Johnson was an accomplished flier and very used to Spitfires by then.

 

[Shortround6]

Here's where things get strange.... No matter whether over the English or the Bristo Channel, Faber should have headed South East to reach France, whereas he actually headed north. Why was this? Was he lost or was he defecting? No account that I have read addresses this fundamental mistake.

A wild guess here. He was flying a reciprocal course. Many compasses have a rotating dial to set the course and a marker to show the course being flown. If he set the dial wrong he may have just flown the wrong way. This was a common error back then. It is the most reasonable explanation for the famous Flight 19 disappearance of Bermuda Triangle fame. It is not quite so believable for Wrong Way Corrigan.

Douglas Corrigan - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Greyman]

Secondly, All the books that I have read state that the Spitfire, in all its various marks, could out turn any FW 190. But Johnnie Johnson, Britain's top scoring ace, who flew Spitfires throughout the war, states that on 19th August, 1942, during the operation over Dieppe, he was flying a Stitfire Mk V and was comprehensively out-turned by an FW 190, only escaping by diving down to sea level and flying over a nearby destroyer, whose anti aircraft guns scared the 190 off. How could this have been? Johnson was an accomplished flier and very used to Spitfires by then.

Right out of the gate -- I will say it is a bit puzzling. However ...

Turning / dogfighting isn't a binary affair. There's a lot of finesse and observation that's required to get the most out of your airplane. It's possible that the pilot Johnson faced was just that much better than he was. I've not read a ton about Johnnie Johnson -- but while being a good shot and a superb leader --I don't think he was ever known to be a dogfighting wizard.

Apologies to the regular forums-goers, but I'll be posting this anecdote yet again:

From (then Flight Lieutenant) Wing Commander Hugh Godefroy DSO, DFC and Bar, Croix de Guerre with Gold Star (Fr), shortly before Dieppe.

At Duxford one day a US Army Captain arrived unexpectedly with a P-38. Like the other Air Corps pilots, he had no battle experience and asked if he could get somebody to dogfight with him in a Spitfire IXb. Flight Lieutenant Clive, implying that he was in charge, said he would be glad to cooperate. He would fly the Spitfire himself. We were all a witness to the P-38 outmanoeuvre Clive, even turning inside him. When they landed, Clive came into Dispersal sweating profusely and stated the P-38 could outmanoeuvre the IXb. The Captain asked if he could have that in writing to show his Commanding Officer.

'Certainly,' said Clive, 'I'll have it ready for you by lunchtime.'


I was convinced this was wrong, and pleaded with Campbell-Orr to let me fly against him before issuing any report. The Captain supported me in my request, and off we went. I was able to show that there was no way he could come anywhere near me in the Spitfire. To demonstrate the turning ability, I let him get on my tail. In two complete circles from this position, I was able to get in firing position behind him. The Captain was not a bit upset, he had come to learn the truth. I told him I thought a good pilot in a 109F would give him a lot of trouble.
​

Now here we have two mock combats with everything remaining constant except for the pilot of one of the aircraft - and we get completely opposite results.

Regarding Johnson's anecdote ... one thing I'd like to draw attention to is Godefroy's 'I was convinced this was wrong...'. Why was he convinced the Lightning outmanoeuvring the Spitfire was wrong? He had no experience with the Lightning. I think Godefory knew he was that much better than Flight Lieutenant Clive.

I also think it's not impossible that in the stress of the moment Johnson may have had not set his propeller, throttle, or mixture to what he intended. When you're seconds from death sometimes the little details slip by.

 

[Writer]

Right out of the gate -- I will say it is a bit puzzling. However ...

Turning / dogfighting isn't a binary affair. There's a lot of finesse and observation that's required to get the most out of your airplane. It's possible that the pilot Johnson faced was just that much better than he was. I've not read a ton about Johnnie Johnson -- but while being a good shot and a superb leader --I don't think he was ever known to be a dogfighting wizard.

Apologies to the regular forums-goers, but I'll be posting this anecdote yet again:

From (then Flight Lieutenant) Wing Commander Hugh Godefroy DSO, DFC and Bar, Croix de Guerre with Gold Star (Fr), shortly before Dieppe.

At Duxford one day a US Army Captain arrived unexpectedly with a P-38. Like the other Air Corps pilots, he had no battle experience and asked if he could get somebody to dogfight with him in a Spitfire IXb. Flight Lieutenant Clive, implying that he was in charge, said he would be glad to cooperate. He would fly the Spitfire himself. We were all a witness to the P-38 outmanoeuvre Clive, even turning inside him. When they landed, Clive came into Dispersal sweating profusely and stated the P-38 could outmanoeuvre the IXb. The Captain asked if he could have that in writing to show his Commanding Officer.

'Certainly,' said Clive, 'I'll have it ready for you by lunchtime.'


I was convinced this was wrong, and pleaded with Campbell-Orr to let me fly against him before issuing any report. The Captain supported me in my request, and off we went. I was able to show that there was no way he could come anywhere near me in the Spitfire. To demonstrate the turning ability, I let him get on my tail. In two complete circles from this position, I was able to get in firing position behind him. The Captain was not a bit upset, he had come to learn the truth. I told him I thought a good pilot in a 109F would give him a lot of trouble.
​

Now here we have two mock combats with everything remaining constant except for the pilot of one of the aircraft - and we get completely opposite results.

Regarding Johnson's anecdote ... one thing I'd like to draw attention to is Godefroy's 'I was convinced this was wrong...'. Why was he convinced the Lightning outmanoeuvring the Spitfire was wrong? He had no experience with the Lightning. I think Godefory knew he was that much better than Flight Lieutenant Clive.

I also think it's not impossible that in the stress of the moment Johnson may have had not set his propeller, throttle, or mixture to what he intended. When you're seconds from death sometimes the little details slip by.

Thank you for your observations and you may well be right... I went into the details of what controls were necessary for a pilot to operate in the cockpits of the various fighter aircraft in both WW1 and WW2 and if there was one aspect of the Focke-Wulf 190's cockpit that stood out, it was the "Kommandogerat" system of engine control, which enabled its pilot to only have the throttle lever to worry about, airscrew pitch, mixture control, supercharger boost all being done for him. Not so in the Spitfire. Douglas Bader wrecked a Spitfire on take off once by not selecting the correct pitch control.

I do find it difficult to believe that a P-38 Lightning could out-turn a Spitfire but hey, I've just featured a piece that showed that Johnson in a Spitfire was out turned by a Focke-Wulf 190 which all the books say couldn't happen!

 

[Writer]

A wild guess here. He was flying a reciprocal course. Many compasses have a rotating dial to set the course and a marker to show the course being flown. If he set the dial wrong he may have just flown the wrong way. This was a common error back then. It is the most reasonable explanation for the famous Flight 19 disappearance of Bermuda Triangle fame. It is not quite so believable for Wrong Way Corrigan.

Douglas Corrigan - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Thank you. That does make sense!

 

[Boom]

By Dieppe '42 Johnson was a highly experienced pilot, having flown almost continuously in combat since January 1941.

I think Greyman is onto something when he posted that Johnson probably had the misfortune to come up against a better pilot. After all Johnson himself said:
"Yes, the 190 was causing us real problems at this time. We could out-turn it, but you couldn't turn all day. As the number of 190s increased, so the depth of our penetrations decreased. They drove us back to the coast really."

It should be remembered that by Dieppe, Johnson been involved in combats against the Fw 190 for several months, so knew the aircraft's potential.

 

[Tiger11]

My understanding is that the Spit V and the Bf-109 were evenly matched. When the FW 190 entered the arena, the Spit V was outclassed and the Spit IX, with uprated Merlin engine was developed specifically to deal with the FW 190A. I assume that Johnson by this time was flying the Spitfire Mark IX.

As for the Spitfire vs P-38 we are not told what models the pilots were flying. Until 1944 when the P-38J was in the war, with its hydraulically boosted ailerons, no Lightning could turn with the current single-engine fighters - German or Japanese. Lightning pilots were advised to gain an altitude advantage, dive, shoot, dive away and climb back up and repeat. In the anecdote given I'm inclined to side with the other posters who feel that the pilot made the difference.

 

[Greyman]

My understanding is that the Spit V and the Bf-109 were evenly matched. When the FW 190 entered the arena, the Spit V was outclassed and the Spit IX, with uprated Merlin engine was developed specifically to deal with the FW 190A. I assume that Johnson by this time was flying the Spitfire Mark IX.

As for the Spitfire vs P-38 we are not told what models the pilots were flying. Until 1944 when the P-38J was in the war, with its hydraulically boosted ailerons, no Lightning could turn with the current single-engine fighters - German or Japanese. Lightning pilots were advised to gain an altitude advantage, dive, shoot, dive away and climb back up and repeat. In the anecdote given I'm inclined to side with the other posters who feel that the pilot made the difference.

Johnson was in a Spitfire Vb (EP254) during his Dieppe combat.

The Lightning in Godefroy's anecdote was a P-38F (17592).

 

[Lplus]

I recall Johnson saying the Fw 190 pilot was possibly Italian on the basis of a personal insignia on the plane.

Secondly it is possible that the FW 190 pilot applied takeoff flap (10 degrees) to tighten the turn radius. Strictly against regs of course but possible at the low speeds of a turning fight.

 

[eagledad]

Gentlemen

As for the early P-38's turn performance:

As to the relative performance of the rival fighters, the P-38 stacked up well. It could outrun the Me-109 and FW-190 at all altitudes, although this was possible only if' the pilot ignored the maximum power limit; and with the use of the combat flaps it would outturn both German types, which often spun attempting to follow. In a climb the Messerschmitt and Focke Wulf enjoyed only a greater initial surge but the Lightning could not dive with them at as steep an angle or with as rapid a pull-out.

Source:

Twelfth Air Force in the North African winter campaign, 11 November 1942 to the reorganization of 18 February 1943. - World War II Operational Documents - Ike Skelton Combined Arms Research Library (CARL) Digital Library (oclc.org) page 70

Also note that the pilots ignored the power limits when their lives were on the line.

Eagledad

 

[Tiger11]

Gentlemen

As for the early P-38's turn performance:

As to the relative performance of the rival fighters, the P-38 stacked up well. It could outrun the Me-109 and FW-190 at all altitudes, although this was possible only if' the pilot ignored the maximum power limit; and with the use of the combat flaps it would outturn both German types, which often spun attempting to follow. In a climb the Messerschmitt and Focke Wulf enjoyed only a greater initial surge but the Lightning could not dive with them at as steep an angle or with as rapid a pull-out.

Source:

Twelfth Air Force in the North African winter campaign, 11 November 1942 to the reorganization of 18 February 1943. - World War II Operational Documents - Ike Skelton Combined Arms Research Library (CARL) Digital Library (oclc.org) page 70

Also note that the pilots ignored the power limits when their lives were on the line.

Eagledad

The use of combat, or 50% flap would definitely tighten up the turn. But it also slowed the plane considerably. It then became a question of who stalls and spins first? The P-38 & the P-47 were the fastest diving fighters. Both suffered compressibility problems in the pullout. Dive recovery flaps on the J and L model P-38s solved this - but only if they were deployed before the start of the dive.

Back in the Seventies I owned three P-38s and flew two of them for some years. Great plane, but high maintenance.

 

[tomo pauk]

Back in the Seventies I owned three P-38s and flew two of them for some years.

Dude.

 

[SaparotRob]

...

Back in the Seventies I owned three P-38s and flew two of them for some years. Great plane, but high maintenance.

I hate you in the most respectful and envious way possible.

 

[BiffF15]

Pictures? Did they have the turbos functioning?

 

[Writer]

My understanding is that the Spit V and the Bf-109 were evenly matched. When the FW 190 entered the arena, the Spit V was outclassed and the Spit IX, with uprated Merlin engine was developed specifically to deal with the FW 190A. I assume that Johnson by this time was flying the Spitfire Mark IX.

As for the Spitfire vs P-38 we are not told what models the pilots were flying. Until 1944 when the P-38J was in the war, with its hydraulically boosted ailerons, no Lightning could turn with the current single-engine fighters - German or Japanese. Lightning pilots were advised to gain an altitude advantage, dive, shoot, dive away and climb back up and repeat. In the anecdote given I'm inclined to side with the other posters who feel that the pilot made the difference.

Thank you for your contribution. Johnson was flying a Spitfire MKVb, not a MKIX. In his book, "Wing Leader", Johnson points out that Spitfire MKIXs were only being used by a few units at the time of the Dieppe landings.

 

[Tiger11]

Yes, the turbos were functioning. Turbos could be found at surplus dealers for $50 apiece. Allison V1710-111/113 engines, in the crate brand new, for $350! Ah, those were the days!

 

[tomo pauk]

Yes, the turbos were functioning. Turbos could be found at surplus dealers for $50 apiece. Allison V1710-111/113 engines, in the crate brand new, for $350! Ah, those were the days!

As said before by another forumite here, my jealousy burns like the heat of thousand suns

 

[Tiger11]

I hate you in the most respectful and envious way possible.

I have to say that this was before my marriage, which found other uses for my spare cash!

 

[SaparotRob]

I have to say that this was before my marriage, which found other uses for my spare cash!

"We are of a kind, you and I.."
Unnamed Romulan Commander

 

[Tiger11]

Yes, the turbos were functioning. Turbos could be found at surplus dealers for $50 apiece. Allison V1710-111/113 engines, in the crate brand new, for $350! Ah, those were the days!