FW-190 and The Battle of Britain

[Njaco]

The Fw-190 was first seen in combat in August 1941. I'm curious what would have been the outcome if it was seen a year earlier in August 1940, in time for the BoB? Would Germany have gained air superiority for Operation Sea Lion or just prolonged the eventual outcome?

 

[rochie]

My thoughts are just like what happened in 1941, there would of been a temporary advantage to the Fw 190 then the RAF would of reacted, probably in a similar way to how they did historically to close the gap in performance of its fighters

 

[tomo pauk]

Topic for the what-if sub forum?

The Fw 190 in 1940, that is equivalent of the Fw 190 in 1941, still has the same short radius and a very troublesome engine. The 190 was on the verge of being cancelled in 1941 even though it never ventured much above the Chanel.
British can keep out of the reach ( LW can bomb the corner of Kent closest to France to their heart content), pounce the retreating LW - there is no enough of fuel left both for combat at the return leg and to actually make it to home - and the Spitfire III actually materializes.

 

[Howard Gibson]

The Fw-190 was first seen in combat in August 1941. I'm curious what would have been the outcome if it was seen a year earlier in August 1940, in time for the BoB? Would Germany have gained air superiority for Operation Sea Lion or just prolonged the eventual outcome?

What sort of engine would the Fw190 have had in in 1940? The BMW801 was not reliable in 1941.

 

[Njaco]

Topic for the what-if sub forum?

The Fw 190 in 1940, that is equivalent of the Fw 190 in 1941, still has the same short radius and a very troublesome engine. The 190 was on the verge of being cancelled in 1941 even though it never ventured much above the Chanel.
British can keep out of the reach ( LW can bomb the corner of Kent closest to France to their heart content), pounce the retreating LW - there is no enough of fuel left both for combat at the return leg and to actually make it to home - and the Spitfire III actually materializes.

I guess I have been away so long, I wasn't aware there was a sub-topic. If the Admins want to move it, be my guest!

 

[Wurger]

Done.

 

[yulzari]

LW can bomb the corner of Kent closest to France to their heart content), pounce the retreating LW - there is no enough of fuel left both for combat at the return leg and to actually make it to home - and the Spitfire III actually materializes.

That corner was within coastal artillery range and was shelled for four years. No need for the Luftwaffe to be involved. Shells reached almost into Chatham from France from the 21 cm (8.3 in) Kanone 12 in Eisenbahnlafette.

Curiously both the Germans and the British had coastal artillery there yet coastal shipping continued to pass along the Channel and neither side hit very much in the way of ships.

Edit: Hellfire Corner - British Guild of Tourist Guides

 

[ThomasP]

What sacrifices - in terms of production - would have to be made in order to build enough Fw190s to have an effect?

 

[tomo pauk]

What sacrificed - in terms of production - would have to be made in order to build enough Fw190s to have an effect?

Fw made 345 of the early Bf110s (a smattering of the C, D, and E versions), so that is probably the 1st 'victim' of this scenario. There is now almost 700 of DB 601s to spare - a boon for the 1940 German/Axis war production effort, but the loss of the good part of the 110 to be had in 1940 is a major blow.
Perhaps a better option is to have the 190s being made at Henschel, so the Hs 129 never materializes (beyond the 1st prototype?). The Hs 129A were the German version of the Blackburn Botha success story; Germans having the sense to put the brakes on this much earlier.

 

[ThomasP]

Give the extra 700x DB601s to the Italians for CR.42DB production - in 1940 they could be useful airframes.

 

[Shortround6]

I may being seeing things wrong. The summer of 1941 Fw 190 had somewhat temperamental engine. It had very good performance, it also had four 7.9mm machine guns, all firing through the prop. The A-2 with the wing root 20mms shows up in fall. Granted four 7.9mm guns are not worthless, but don't expect the same results that the A-2 got.

 

[tomo pauk]

I may being seeing things wrong. The summer of 1941 Fw 190 had somewhat temperamental engine. It had very good performance, it also had four 7.9mm machine guns, all firing through the prop. The A-2 with the wing root 20mms shows up in fall. Granted four 7.9mm guns are not worthless, but don't expect the same results that the A-2 got.

The Fw 190A-1 was with two MG FFMs, plus 4 LMGs.
There is no quick fix to the engine, though

 

[ThomasP]

re

. . . it also had four 7.9mm machine guns, all firing through the prop.

I though the A-0 had 6x MG (2x MG in the nose, 2x MG in the wing root, and 2x MG1 outboard of the prop in the wings)?

 

[tomo pauk]

Here is the weapon manual for the fw 190A-1: link

 

[ThomasP]

I figured we were talking about the A-0 as that was ordered in late-1940. When was the A-1 ordered into production?

 

[tomo pauk]

I figured we were talking about the A-0 as that was ordered in late-1940.

The OP is not specifying the version.

When was the A-1 ordered into production?

I'm not sure.
The 1st were delivered to the units in June 1941.

 

[GTX]

No individual weapon would have made a difference if the same basic tactics were followed. If the attacks on airfields had have continued as a priority than one would have seen a different result.

 

[tomo pauk]

No individual weapon would have made a difference if the same basic tactics were followed. If the attacks on airfields had have continued as a priority than one would have seen a different result.

There needs to happen awful lot of the German preparations before the success in the BoB happens.
Fighters need drop tanks. Having the 109s and 190s (for this scenarion) outfitted with such would've meant that the Bf 110s are much less pressed wrt. the longer-ranged escort.
Longer firing times for the main armament; the 8 LMG set-up on the LW fighters would've been probably more practical than staying on the 60 rd drums. Although a belt-fed MG FF, or at least 90 rd drum would've been excellent.
Bombers will still need the increased defensive firepower. The Do 17 was with a feeble bomb load when compared with either the He 111 or the Ju 88. And even the bomb load of these was lame when compared with what the Allies used from 1942 on above Germany.
The Ju 87 was as much of a liability as it was an asset.

Strategy - what are the intentions of the air campaign? Is it defeating the RAF in such a scale that southern half of the UK is the Luftwaffe playing field? Or is it destroying of the British industry? Or is it to cut off the UK from receiving the materials across the Atlantic? Germany can't do all of the three in ewhat is left of 1940.

How to use the assets (ie. tactics, doctrine)? Does the LW has enough of fighters to do both freijagd and close escort? I'd say no.

 

[ThomasP]

re

The OP is not specifying the version.

Then I want the D-9 or Ta-152 model.

 

[GTX]

There needs to happen awful lot of the German preparations before the success in the BoB happens.
Fighters need drop tanks. Having the 109s and 190s (for this scenarion) outfitted with such would've meant that the Bf 110s are much less pressed wrt. the longer-ranged escort.
Longer firing times for the main armament; the 8 LMG set-up on the LW fighters would've been probably more practical than staying on the 60 rd drums. Although a belt-fed MG FF, or at least 90 rd drum would've been excellent.
Bombers will still need the increased defensive firepower. The Do 17 was with a feeble bomb load when compared with either the He 111 or the Ju 88. And even the bomb load of these was lame when compared with what the Allies used from 1942 on above Germany.
The Ju 87 was as much of a liability as it was an asset.

Strategy - what are the intentions of the air campaign? Is it defeating the RAF in such a scale that southern half of the UK is the Luftwaffe playing field? Or is it destroying of the British industry? Or is it to cut off the UK from receiving the materials across the Atlantic? Germany can't do all of the three in ewhat is left of 1940.

How to use the assets (ie. tactics, doctrine)? Does the LW has enough of fighters to do both freijagd and close escort? I'd say no.

If they had gained air superiority and largely defeated the RAF through taking out/totally exhausting their staff (air and ground) then they would be in a far better position to do other things thereafter.